View Poll Results: I personally feel transgender individuals are...

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  • Mentally disturbed.

    39 39.00%
  • Slightly irregular.

    15 15.00%
  • Perfectly normal.

    21 21.00%
  • Progressive.

    1 1.00%
  • Self-Actualized.

    12 12.00%
  • Other (specify).

    12 12.00%
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Thread: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

  1. #121
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?

    These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.
    It becomes fantasy and complete b.s. when the media runs stories like, "First pregnant man! Man gives birth to baby, etc" When no such thing happened.

    There's a difference between being PC and pretending not to notice the cross dresser is really a man disguised as a woman or pretending not to notice a prosthetic vs. proclaiming some absolute hogwash like "pregnant man" and "man gives birth."

    Plus your comparisons are invalid. When one aims to correct a physical deformity/injury/non-working part with something that works there's no reason to question the sanity of said person.

    When one takes healthy human parts and opts to have them mutilated, chopped off, altered etc when there was never anything wrong with those parts to begin with that's when you can reasonably start questioning sanity.

    This doesn't just apply to gender confused folks either. I equally question women who allow a knife to be taken to their breasts to insert man made parts to create an illusion of bigger breasts. People who cover themselves from head to toe in tats. People who create those really hideous huge holes in their earlobes, etc.

    Obviously there are social and cultural norms and they change over time so I know much of the bias is relative to me. I don't mind regular earrings, a few tasteful tats, etc.

    But there does come a point where the surgical manipulation starts to seem crazy, self destructive, and irrational. Breast implants and dick removal would certainly fall under those headings in my mind. The absolute destruction of healthy tissue in favor of creating a delusion seems irrational. Of course their sanity will be questioned.

    When self improvement comes complete with hints and evidence of self hate there's clearly underlying problems and it becomes obvious no knife, no amount of cutting, is going to resolve them.

  2. #122
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Plus your comparisons are invalid. When one aims to correct a physical deformity/injury/non-working part with something that works there's no reason to question the sanity of said person.
    The comparisons that I made was to illustrate that just because they're not part of your body, doesn't make it any less of a solution. Pretend or not, the prosthetic (whether it be an arm or a penis), still is a solution to the problem.

    When one takes healthy human parts and opts to have them mutilated, chopped off, altered etc when there was never anything wrong with those parts to begin with that's when you can reasonably start questioning sanity.
    But there was something wrong with it. GID.

    When self improvement comes complete with hints and evidence of self hate there's clearly underlying problems and it becomes obvious no knife, no amount of cutting, is going to resolve them.
    Did you include "self-improvement" for mental health? It remains a fact that many transsexuals, who underwent the corrective surgery, feels much happier with themselves. Is this not "self-improvement?" Does this not alleviate the "self-hate?"

    Quite obviously one way to resolve this problem is with the knife.
    Last edited by Lightdemon; 10-21-08 at 01:15 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  3. #123
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    I think there are many types of dysphoria. I tend towards believing they are all mental issues to varying degrees. There are many things a person can despise about themselves, get hung up on, etc. I'd prefer we came up with ways to heal the mind vs allowing a person to self mutilate. Self destruction can never really be a "healing" cure in my mind.

    The anorexic woman must find a way to heal her mind. To be comfortable within her own skin. Her belief that she's too fat is just as real as some guys desperate belief that he was meant to be a woman. Someone addicted to plastic surgery like Michael Jackson most definitely has some real self hatred issues going on. His dysphoria is real. But it's a mental issue. There was nothing wrong with his body his look till he start screwing with it with a knife.

    You can't just allow the starving gal to get rail thin so she can become closer to the fantasy of being a stick figure. You can't do that 'cause she'll die. So you have to heal the mind, to heal her.

    If I were a dr. I'd deal with gender disorders the same way. If a patient is a man, I can't make him a woman. That's the reality. The truth the patient eventually must deal with, mentally. The best I can do is help him find a way to be comfortable with his own body, preferably without taking a knife to it, without harming it. Just because he can chop off his penis and live, doesn't mean he should.

    It's a cheap cure if you ask me. A delusion. It doesn't address the real problem. It doesn't heal the dysphoria. If you could heal the dsyphoria then you've accomplished something.
    Last edited by talloulou; 10-21-08 at 01:27 PM.

  4. #124
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I think there are many types of dysphoria. I tend towards believing they are all mental issues to varying degrees. There are many things a person can despise about themselves, get hung up on, etc. I'd prefer we came up with ways to heal the mind vs allowing a person to self mutilate. Self destruction can never really be a "healing" cure in my mind.

    The anorexic woman must find a way to heal her mind. To be comfortable within her own skin. Her belief that she's too fat is just as real as some guys desperate belief that he was meant to be a woman. Someone addicted to plastic surgery like Michael Jackson most definitely has some real self hatred issues going on. His dysphoria is real. But it's a mental issue. There was nothing wrong with his body his look till he start screwing with it with a knife.

    You can't just allow the starving gal to get rail thin so she can become closer to the fantasy of being a stick figure. You can't do that 'cause she'll die. So you have to heal the mind, to heal her.

    If I were a dr. I'd deal with gender disorders the same way. If a patient is a man, I can't make him a woman. That's the reality. The truth the patient eventually must deal with, mentally. The best I can do is help him find a way to be comfortable with his own body, preferably without taking a knife to it, without harming it. Just because he can chop off his penis and live, doesn't mean he should.

    It's a cheap cure if you ask me. A delusion. It doesn't address the real problem. It doesn't heal the dysphoria. If you could heal the dsyphoria then you've accomplished something.
    This goes back to the post where I said that it is important where the direction of the disorder is coming from.

    You are assuming that the problem is that the man/woman is confused. Is it not possible that person is really a woman with the wrong parts? Or a man?

    You see, you are suggesting that your body is defining who you are. It does not begin there, nor does the delusion. It all begins in the mind. Now, if you are suggesting we start healing from there, how are we supposed to do it? Are we going to convince the man that he is in fact a man because of his penis? If it really was a woman with the wrong parts, then that solution will never work.

    What is healthy? Healthy for whom? Perhaps we should define these before we move on.
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Let the public school provide the basics, you as the parent can do the fine tuning.

  5. #125
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    This goes back to the post where I said that it is important where the direction of the disorder is coming from.

    You are assuming that the problem is that the man/woman is confused. Is it not possible that person is really a woman with the wrong parts? Or a man?

    You see, you are suggesting that your body is defining who you are. It does not begin there, nor does the delusion. It all begins in the mind. Now, if you are suggesting we start healing from there, how are we supposed to do it? Are we going to convince the man that he is in fact a man because of his penis? If it really was a woman with the wrong parts, then that solution will never work.

    What is healthy? Healthy for whom? Perhaps we should define these before we move on.
    First, I'm not assuming the person is confused. Confused wouldn't be my word choice. As with any dysphoria I believe they're ultimately unhappy. They are mentally not content with their body. When the body is pathologically healthy the malcontent, the way I see it, has to be a product of the mind.

    A dr. -no matter how good or expensive- cannot turn a man into a woman. This is the reality. To charge them, exploit them, and surgically alter them is a shoddy attempt at healing the dysphoria. When all is said and done they will still be a man, a surgically altered man, but still a man. All this at the expense of a healthy body. The once healthy body, unhealthy mind now becomes an unhealthy mind and unhealthy body.

    If you want to argue that it's healthy for a man to remove his healthy penis I'll just agree to disagree. The removal of a penis is not a benign alteration. It's drastic. It's also pointless in that at first the dr. is dealing with a man who wants to be a woman. Post surgery the dr. is dealing with a penis-less man who wants to be a woman. No healing of any kind occurred and the procedure is irreversible! At this point the dr. should be ashamed of themselves, my opinion of course.

    Meanwhile gender roles change constantly. There's no reason a healthy man can't adopt the appearance of a "woman" without self destruction. There's no reason for the knife and the destruction of healthy tissue unless the patient is lead to believe that the illusion will be so real, so good, that others will be fooled. That for all intent and purposes he as a man has become a woman.

    However society has shown time and time again that they don't buy into such illusions. No amount of surgery makes a man a woman and ultimately the illusion fails its intended purpose.

    I think it's far better to encourage the person to take care of their healthy body, be glad that their body is healthy, and go ahead and encourage them to defy gender roles every which way till Sunday without bringing physical harm to the healthy body they do have. Every effort should be made to help them be comfortable within their own skin.

    Let's say you're right. Let's say it's possible an individual genuinely is "trapped" in the wrong body, the wrong gender. I'll go ahead and accept that premise.

    It doesn't change the argument that they shouldn't do bodily harm to themselves. It doesn't change the FACT that a dr. can't make a man a woman.

    People self harm for a wide variety of reasons. No matter what the underlying cause we normally steer away from allowing them to continue to do that. Gender disorders shouldn't be treated any differently. If you could make a man a woman then that would be different. That would be a "cure." But you can't. So you're just allowing them to self mutilate. We wouldn't allow a "cutter" to keep cutting as long as they did it in a way that never resulted in death. We certainly wouldn't do it and call it a cure. We wouldn't allow drs. to set up shop where they make appts to routinely safely cut cutters in a sterile clean environment and call that a cure for whatever dysphoria they had. The very idea is insane.

    So is cutting off the penis.

    An unhealthy mind needs to be surrounded by healthy minds that aim to heal. It's a disservice to offer them up insane "cures" that are self destructive, illusionary, and without purpose.

  6. #126
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    It's such a pity Jallman...

    At last, I thought, you and I were going to finally discuss something where you don't talk thru your ass. Your post come off as insensitive, pompous, and childish.

    It seems every time I encounter you, you just want to revert back to this childishness. Again, I am robbed of a meaningful conversation with you. If you wish to discuss this like adults, cease the childishness.
    **** you lightdemon. If you can't handle a conversation without throwing out insults directly at your opponent like "childish", you're the one with the problem. And I see Captain lampreyed right to a post with the thanks button even though it's his job to put a stop to such insults being hurled at other posters.

    Would that be the selective moderation we all keep talking about? Hmmm? I wonder...

  7. #127
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I don't believe Jallman thinks the disorder itself is "pretend."

    He asserted a "surgical solution" which involves manipulation/mutilation of ones genitals offers up a "pretend" delusion. The man who genuinely thinks he is in the wrong body cannot become a woman no matter how many surgical alterations he undergoes, no matter how many drugs he takes. No matter what he does he will still be a man, albeit an altered man. But a man nonetheless, not a woman. That's where the fantasy/pretend/delusion part comes into play. With surgery and hormones the aim is to get as close to the goal as possible so you can pretend you are in the "right" body. So you can pretend you are the right gender.

    But you're not. You can't be. A man can't become a woman and vice versa. I'm sure the disorder is real. I'm sure there are folks who really feel like they are in the wrong body. But there's no surgical solution to that which doesn't involve fantasy and pretending, as Jallman said.
    Watch it talloulou, lest you be labeled childish and pompous for having acknowledged simple reality.

  8. #128
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    Does an amputee pretend that he has a new arm when given a prosthetic? Does a man who had heart replacement surgery pretend that he has a new heart? Does an old woman who is hooked up to a respirator machine pretend that the machine is her new lungs?

    These are solutions. Not "pretend" or "fantasy" things.
    None of these examples even come close to altering the gender of a person. Each of these examples does nothing more than make a component of the person functional again. With gender reassignment for Ms. Gender Pretend Disorder, the core of the person is changed to fit a fantasy perception of herself.

  9. #129
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerwind View Post
    Particularly from someone whose lifestyle choice would be characterized with similar terms not so long ago. A man who recently married his boyfriend and yet votes and promotes the party that would take that away from him, that thinks he is a disgrace to family values.
    You know nothing of what you spew. Again, you prove how absolutely dense you are.

  10. #130
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    Re: Transgendered. Insane or Misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightdemon View Post
    As an addendum to my last post:

    Again, Jallman could have chosen much better words in his post. "Obsession" "mutilate" and "pretend" were not accurate. These are clearly offensive, and uncalled for.
    And as an addendum to my post to you:

    Again, I don't give a flying rat's ass what words you wish I had chosen. You don't write my posts for me and if you find them so offensive, report them as such or don't ****ing answer them and move on.

    Obsession, SURGICAL mutilation, and pretend were spot on accurate. Deal with it or refute it. Shouldn't be too hard with CC, our resident Freud, riding on your shoulder.

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