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Death Penalty

For or Against?


  • Total voters
    62
I found this blog that had some interesting studies.
I know Shepherd's work. I find it interesting stuff, but not for the reason you'd think. I see it as an example of how, when restricted to Erhlich type methodologies, the approach is suspect. Finding significant effects on "crimes of passion", given the question marks over rationality and therefore the whole deterrence approach, is effectively inconsistent with the theory used to derive the empirical methodology.
 
Your inability to grasp the argument is none of my concern. You haven't understood the nature of deterrence theory, despite my good nature as I baby you from first principles.


Non-positive is the correct vocab, as we have to take into account zero (which leads to questions over indifference). I've been accurate, whilst you have simply hid. Thanks for your routine though. It did raise a chuckle.

Translation: I got nothing so I will repeat myself.

Your boring.
 
Your boring.
Your continued attacks are unwarranted, given your position is based on knowledge deficiency (and that failure to refer to the marginal cost of additional murders). I'll have to start ignoring your comedy if you don't buck up

Cheers!
 
I haven't referred to serial killers. Standard rationality assumptions are often of course insufficient. I'm referring to the more mundane killer. Say, for example, you kill someone via a 'crime of passion' (itself suggesting deterrence does not operate). What then stops you from not doing everything in your power, including further murders, to avoid the punishment repercussions?

Why would you need to murder anyone else, that was never the intent.

The marginal deterrence theory suggests to me that all killers are ruthless, and cannot be rehabilitated. Murderers donot always kill all the witneses. I'd say mostly they don't because usually there are no witnesses.

In NY the sentencing for selling drugs, and 2nd degree murder is 15 years, so this makes it a good idea to kill the buyer of your drugs. Course now if this were the case, people would stop buying the drugs cause they'd know they'd get killed.

You'd have to assume that the murderer does not follow self-interested maximisation (given the marginal benefits from the additional murder will exceed the marginal costs). I of course would agree that may well be the case. However, creating the incentives remains irrational (as there surely will be some increase in multiple murders)

But there's also a decrease on the one end(deterrence), and as you say a increase on the other. Could be it evens out. I think from what I've read the DP doesn't stop the murderers, but these people that can committ such heinous crimes need to receive justice. Living in jail isn't enough justice in most people's eyes. They have three squares, a roof, TV, can workout, they get tatoo's, have sex. I mean really they don't have to work. I've read that some criminals actually prefer jail because they are able to be more comfortable than in their real lives on the outside. There is a subculture in the US, there just is, it's a big country.

You don't need for it to occur the majority of the time. Once we refer to crime interdependence, we have to analyse the whole criminal punishment system. The creation of any perverse incentives is not logical.

It has to occur a reasonable number of times to be taken seriously.

But it would have to work all the time by your estimation, and it doesn't. You won't factor in all the possibilities, and that's why this theory isn't totally right.

There's a distinction here between single and multiple murders. The single murderer, for your point to operate, must be a rational agent who commits murder because the benefits outweigh the costs. Clearly, losing your life is a bit of a cost! However, the evidence of deterrence effects is actually rather mixed. For example, Zimmerman (2006, Estimates of the deterrent effect of alternative execution methods in the United States: 1978-2000, American Journal of Economics and Sociology) finds deterrence only works for some forms of execution. This may reflect differences in perception over the brutality of these different forms. I doubt that though. Its more likely to describe the empirical problems faced, particularly with moments of madness dictating irrational behaviour and negating the relevance of rational economic man.

Not all murderers get the DP. Most don't from what I've read. Race, sex economics those are all factors in who gets the DP. That's where I have an issue. If it can't be dished out fairly, then it's not a good practice.
 
The marginal deterrence theory suggests to me that all killers are ruthless, and cannot be rehabilitated.
It only requires that the criminal is rational. We know that is not always the case. We also know that psychology often makes the assumption of homo economicus suspect (e.g. the distinction between rational behaviour and rationalising behaviour). However, we don't need a binary: everyone is rational or irrational. We just need for rationality to be a significant feature. Self-preservation effectively ensures that is the case.

But there's also a decrease on the one end(deterrence), and as you say a increase on the other. Could be it evens out.
I couldn't agree for the two reasons I've given. First, the creation of any perverse incentives will ensure the punishment regime is inappropriate. Second, there is likely to be a distinction between the behavioural characteristics of the single and the multiple murder. Given the assorted explanations for murder (many of which are not quite consistent with self-interest), deterrence is likely to be more suspect for the single murder. Take an extreme such as infanticide. Would the death penalty be able to control such behaviour? I very much doubt it.

The multiple murder, in comparison, is much safer ground for homo economicus. Self-preservation is classic self-interest in play and therefore consistent with the marginal benefit and marginal cost comparison.

I've read that some criminals actually prefer jail because they are able to be more comfortable than in their real lives on the outside.
The perception of canny comfort in the prison system is largely a myth encouraged by folk that want to avoid the nasty reality of institutionalisation. I think there are indeed other issues that need to be examined: for example, cross-country comparison into the size of prison populations suggests that either countries have more general social problems (encouraged, for example, by income inequality levels) or have too much reliance on the prison system.

But it would have to work all the time by your estimation, and it doesn't. You won't factor in all the possibilities, and that's why this theory isn't totally right.
No theory is 'totally right'. I'm just not prepared to give up the notion that a significant percentage of criminals are rational agents.

Not all murderers get the DP. Most don't from what I've read. Race, sex economics those are all factors in who gets the DP.
There certainly are other variables at play. A rational criminal would of course include those variables in his expected benefits and costs. We could argue that multiple murders would be less likely, other things remaining equal, amongst socio-economic groups with a lower risk of receiving the death penalty. I'm not aware of any analysis into these specific issues though.

That's where I have an issue. If it can't be dished out fairly, then it's not a good practice.
Inequity is always a worry. However, the death penalty fiend can remark that those problems can, over time, be eliminated. The inefficiency, however, cannot. Any punishment that creates perverse incentives should be avoided like the plague.
 
Inequity is always a worry. However, the death penalty fiend can remark that those problems can, over time, be eliminated. The inefficiency, however, cannot. Any punishment that creates perverse incentives should be avoided like the plague.

What should the punishment be? Not real sure there is an answer to this question.
 
What should the punishment be? Not real sure there is an answer to this question.
Its a question that I certainly cannot answer. Designing well constructed punishment systems isn't an easy task. Its the extremes that are easy to answer: be it too lenient punishment or the emotionalism spawned by the death penalty
 
Your continued attacks are unwarranted, given your position is based on knowledge deficiency (and that failure to refer to the marginal cost of additional murders). I'll have to start ignoring your comedy if you don't buck up

Cheers!


Hypocrite. Every one of your posts is insultive.
Start answering the questions posed to you and perhaps I will take you seriously.

'Till then, you're just another monkey trying hard to impress... :2wave:
 
Can't do it, eh Scucca? Didn't think so...
You have no logical rebuttal to my position. :2razz:
 
You aren't surprised, are you?

Heck no...
But I also can't help being obvious and 'in your face' about it either. :2razz:
 
Right, but are they being ignored because there question will reveal a flaw in the other's argument, or are they being ignored becuase they are backing an idiotic position and they are unyielding in the manner in which they debate.

Both?

Generally the people who deliberately ignore questions are those who's arguments are terrible. It's one thing to miss a question or two, but to completely pretend that numerous questions don't exist? Willful ignorance comes to mind.
 
Both?

Generally the people who deliberately ignore questions are those who's arguments are terrible. It's one thing to miss a question or two, but to completely pretend that numerous questions don't exist? Willful ignorance comes to mind.


That is true, that certainly can be a third situation.
 
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