Left Coming to Terms with Their Own Bigotry - Page 4

Redress · 05-17-08, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquapub

Lame distortion of my argument (straw man fallacy). Democrats overwhelmingly support racist preferential treatments for blacks (Affirmative Action), hence most Democrats are on the record supporting racism, therefore it is fair to say Democrats are largely racist.

Let's deal with THAT egregious flaw in your counterpoint first, and then we'll get to the rest.

Complaining about distortion in a thread that is nothing but distortion and baiting is kinda amusing.

I am not a big fan of Affirmative Action, but I do understand the reason some support it. When systematic racism in the past has left a race with fewer opertunities for success, then I can see, and understand why people might see it as one way to give people of that race an even chance at success.

Note that Affirmative Action has absolutely nothing to do with the events in West Virginia. That is actual racism, and both parties have members who are guilty of it. AA is not racism, it is an attempt to repair damage done by racism. This is a pretty unsubtle difference.

Now, a question: do you have any actual suggestions as to how to repair the damage done by the system of legally promoted and systematic racism that was in place for 100 years post Civil War that does not target blacks for special assistance? Or do you somehow think it is OK that one race of people have fewer chances at success in this country, due to the lingering affects of that countries own policies?

Thales · 05-17-08, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redress

Now, a question: do you have any actual suggestions as to how to repair the damage done by the system of legally promoted and systematic racism that was in place for 100 years post Civil War that does not target blacks for special assistance? Or do you somehow think it is OK that one race of people have fewer chances at success in this country, due to the lingering affects of that countries own policies?

But the problem with such a line of thought is that we need to make up for the events of the 1800's. Do we, as a society, need to compensate by race for the sins of our ancestors?

The social and economic problems caused by slavery and segregation are lingering and affect us today. But I don't see how hiring or admitting less qualified applicants because of their race is a fair deal to this generation.

Admitting a black kid with a B+ instead of a white kid with an A- isn't going to solve America's problems, and it isn't fair to either child. Instead we should be working to reduce crime rates and fix inner city schools, solutions to problems without special assistance because of race. Affirmative action might be coming from a good place, but it's not the answer.

Redress · 05-17-08, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thales

But the problem with such a line of thought is that we need to make up for the events of the 1800's. Do we, as a society, need to compensate by race for the sins of our ancestors?

The social and economic problems caused by slavery and segregation are lingering and affect us today. But I don't see how hiring or admitting less qualified applicants because of their race is a fair deal to this generation.

Admitting a black kid with a B+ instead of a white kid with an A- isn't going to solve America's problems, and it isn't fair to either child. Instead we should be working to reduce crime rates and fix inner city schools, solutions to problems without special assistance because of race. Affirmative action might be coming from a good place, but it's not the answer.

1950's and 60's actually. Hell, my lifetime.

1069 · 05-17-08, 05:06 PM

Quote:

But the problem with such a line of thought is that we need to make up for the events of the 1800's. Do we, as a society, need to compensate by race for the sins of our ancestors?

Yes, because our victims' descendants are still suffering today because of what our ancestors did back then... and we are still prospering from the ill-gotten gains of our ancestors, at the expense of their victims' descendants.
Out on my family's land, there's a place- a little grove in the woods- called Eli's Hollow.
Eli was a slave that stayed on through the civil war and beyond it, until the end of his life, working as a sharecropper for my family. That little clearing is the spot where his cabin stood.
The thing is, my great-great grandfather owned Eli, amassed a fortune with the help of Eli and numerous other slaves.
And there's still enough of that left for me and my family to have certain benefits in life.
But what about Eli's great-great granddaughter?
She might be just my age. She might still live here in town.
Does she even know his name? Probably not; it's hard for people of color to do their genealogies, because people of color were not listed on censuses until the 1880s.
Does she know that that spot in the woods is his, named for him? That we still have furniture he built with his own hands?
How hard he worked for my family and how loyal he was until the end of his life?
Does she know that some of the money we have is hers- not by legal right, but by moral and ethical right?

TOJ · 05-17-08, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

Yes, because our victims' descendants are still suffering today because of what our ancestors did back then... and we are still prospering from the ill-gotten gains of our ancestors, at the expense of their victims' descendants.
Out on my family's land, there's a place- a little grove in the woods- called Eli's Hollow.
Eli was a slave that stayed on through the civil war and beyond it, until the end of his life, working as a sharecropper for my family. That little clearing is the spot where his cabin stood.
The thing is, my great-great grandfather owned Eli, amassed a fortune with the help of Eli and numerous other slaves.
And there's still enough of that left for me and my family to have certain benefits in life.
But what about Eli's great-great granddaughter?
She might be just my age. She might still live here in town.
Does she even know his name? Probably not; it's hard for people of color to do their genealogies, because people of color were not listed on censuses until the 1880s.
Does she know that that spot in the woods is his, named for him? That we still have furniture he built with his own hands?
How hard he worked for my family and how loyal he was until the end of his life?
Does she know that some of the money we have is hers- not by legal right, but by moral and ethical right?

And what is keeping you from looking her up and giving it to her?

Thales · 05-17-08, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1069

Yes, because our victims' descendants are still suffering today because of what our ancestors did back then... and we are still prospering from the ill-gotten gains of our ancestors, at the expense of their victims' descendants.
Out on my family's land, there's a place- a little grove in the woods- called Eli's Hollow.
Eli was a slave that stayed on through the civil war and beyond it, until the end of his life, working as a sharecropper for my family. That little clearing is the spot where his cabin stood.
The thing is, my great-great grandfather owned Eli, amassed a fortune with the help of Eli and numerous other slaves.
And there's still enough of that left for me and my family to have certain benefits in life.
But what about Eli's great-great granddaughter?
She might be just my age. She might still live here in town.
Does she even know his name? Probably not; it's hard for people of color to do their genealogies, because people of color were not listed on censuses until the 1880s.
Does she know that that spot in the woods is his, named for him? That we still have furniture he built with his own hands?
How hard he worked for my family and how loyal he was until the end of his life?
Does she know that some of the money we have is hers- not by legal right, but by moral and ethical right?

The reverberations of the past generations are clearly still felt today. The story of Eli is, I'm sure, one of millions of slaves and their descendants.

But it was not you who owned Eli; what he did benefited you and your family, but you didn't buy him or sell him. He didn't work for you for nothing - he worked for your great-great grandfather.

I reject the idea of generational guilt - I believe that we did not commit the crimes of the past, and I don't believe we should feel personally guilty for them either. Yes, there were wrongs. Slavery and discrimination are a part of our country's history and for many, family history. But I don't feel shame for what happened before my birth any more than a German should avert his eyes from the face of a passing Jew.

We are where we are - here and now. This generation. Our history is our history and we can't deny that it happened. But it we didn't own slaves; we didn't lynch black men for looking at white women.

We don't need to give people an unfair advantage or handicap others for things beyond their control. The wrongs we seek to correct should be todays wrongs; poverty, crime, education. These are the reverberations of the past we should fight, not helping the right percentage of races get into college. And in doing so, we can seek to heal the wounds of history. Not feel guilt for them.

Redress · 05-17-08, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thales

The reverberations of the past generations are clearly still felt today. The story of Eli is, I'm sure, one of millions of slaves and their descendants.

But it was not you who owned Eli; what he did benefited you and your family, but you didn't buy him or sell him. He didn't work for you for nothing - he worked for your great-great grandfather.

I reject the idea of generational guilt - I believe that we did not commit the crimes of the past, and I don't believe we should feel personally guilty for them either. Yes, there were wrongs. Slavery and discrimination are a part of our country's history and for many, family history. But I don't feel shame for what happened before my birth any more than a German should avert his eyes from the face of a passing Jew.

We are where we are - here and now. This generation. Our history is our history and we can't deny that it happened. But it we didn't own slaves; we didn't lynch black men for looking at white women.

We don't need to give people an unfair advantage or handicap others for things beyond their control. The wrongs we seek to correct should be todays wrongs; poverty, crime, education. These are the reverberations of the past we should fight, not helping the right percentage of races get into college. And in doing so, we can seek to heal the wounds of history. Not feel guilt for them.

Interesting post, and I agree with alot of it. I am not going to be ashamed or embarrassed by things I had no hand in, that happened before I was born. I don't believe Affirmative Action is done out of those motives though.

I believe the reason we have to help black people attain equity is because people should have an equal chance at success in life. Right now, this is not the case, the urban poor, who are far and away mostly black, simply do not have the opportunities that white people have. That is what AA attempts to rectify, not the problems of the past, but the problems in the now, that result from the past. Whether AA is the best solution or not, I do not know(I suspect not), but it is an attempt to ensure that black people have some of the same opportunity that white people have.

CaptainCourtesy · 05-18-08, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragonslayer

I consider this a really wasted and baiting poll. It does nothing but try to press some pointless political agenda.

Moderator's Warning:

And I consider this trolling. Please stop doing this. If you do not like the thread, don't post on it.

CaptainCourtesy · 05-18-08, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aquapub

Lame distortion of my argument (straw man fallacy). Democrats overwhelmingly support racist preferential treatments for blacks (Affirmative Action), hence most Democrats are on the record supporting racism, therefore it is fair to say Democrats are largely racist.

Let's deal with THAT egregious flaw in your counterpoint first, and then we'll get to the rest.

I always enjoy pointing out logical fallacies like this. Notice how this argument develops. We start with Democrats supporting "racist preferential treatments" (Affirmative Action). This is an inaccurate statement. Affirmative Action is NOT a "racist preferential treatment". It is a "RACE preferential treatment". This is a very different statement. Further, one must understand the intent of AA. It is not a racist program, supporting the superiority of one race over the other. It's purpose is to reverse past acts of discrimination. Now, I am not a supporter of AA, however, understanding the purpose and intent of the program is essential in understanding that it is not racist. All that follows, builds from this inaccurate statement, so all that follows is also inaccurate. Democrats are not on record as supporting racism, and Democrats are not, largely, racist.

aquapub · 05-18-08, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redress

Complaining about distortion in a thread that is nothing but distortion and baiting is kinda amusing.

Democrats identifying Democrat racism as being the reason Obama won WV is me distorting things?

Um...sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redress

I am not a big fan of Affirmative Action, but I do understand the reason some support it. When systematic racism in the past has left a race with fewer opertunities for success, then I can see, and understand why people might see it as one way to give people of that race an even chance at success.

The exception that proves the rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redress

Note that Affirmative Action has absolutely nothing to do with the events in West Virginia. That is actual racism, and both parties have members who are guilty of it. AA is not racism, it is an attempt to repair damage done by racism. This is a pretty unsubtle difference.

Affirmative Action is fighting racism with racism. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redress

Now, a question: do you have any actual suggestions as to how to repair the damage done by the system of legally promoted and systematic racism that was in place for 100 years post Civil War that does not target blacks for special assistance? Or do you somehow think it is OK that one race of people have fewer chances at success in this country, due to the lingering affects of that countries own policies?

Anyone who wants success can earn it. Atrocities from a century ago hold no one back today. The Irish were violated in a number of ways for centuries, and many of them came over here poor as a result. Their poverty-stricken starting point doesn't warrant federal nanny state intervention on their behalf today anymore than slavery a hundred years ago warrants extra handouts for blacks now. It warrants hard work on the part of the Irish, as with blacks. The American Dream promises the opportunity to achieve success, not success itself.