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Is Russia your ally?

Is Russia your ally?

  • Total voters
    102
americanwoman said:
Time to forgive and forget or keep our distance?

From the time most of us from the US were born, it's been presented that Russia is not our friend. Recently the tables seem to be turning for a more friendlier stance in certain circles.

Whatever country you are from, do you consider Russia to be your ally or not?
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they r a strong and helpful ally. our interests are the same. to make the world great again.
 
americanwoman said:
Time to forgive and forget or keep our distance?

From the time most of us from the US were born, it's been presented that Russia is not our friend. Recently the tables seem to be turning for a more friendlier stance in certain circles.

Whatever country you are from, do you consider Russia to be your ally or not?
Click to expand...

Russia has never had allies. At best, theres been nations that Russia shared common interests with, for awhile. Russia dominates, that's been her foreign policy since forever. Any American who pretends that Russia is a trustworthy ally is deluding theirself. Russia may never directly threaten the US but she'll undercut American influence and promote her own at every opportunity.
 
Russia still has a lingering paranoia hangover from the USSR days, and we had a large hand in that mess.

People need to realize that in less than a 100 years, they have gone from Czars and dictatorships to the Duma where Putin is the top dog.

They will eventually get it right, and I want to see America standing right there with them.
 
RetiredUSN said:
Russia still has a lingering paranoia hangover from the USSR days, and we had a large hand in that mess. People need to realize that in less than a 100 years, they have gone from Czars and dictatorships to the Duma where Putin is the top dog. They will eventually get it right, and I want to see America standing right there with them.
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I see it going back much further than 100 years. For centuries Russia had been an ultra conservative and backward facing nation. Even as Peter the Great pushed for progress the nobility clung to the past where selfdom was as entrenched. The Russian has always felt slighted in Western Centric history. They stood up to the Nazi onslaught without the aid of a channel, millions died, without Russian resistance to Nazi Germany drawing the vast bulk of Germany's military I doubt D-Day would have worked.

That said they have always wanted a zone of influence deep around it's frontier. They have been invaded too many times to trust treaties like we seem to do. But Russia doesn't want to be our ally, just wants to be seen as our equal. I doubt we cooperate too much with Russia, our mutual interests are few and far between as both of us see each other's politics and economics quite at odds with each other... :peace
 
notquiteright said:
I see it going back much further than 100 years. For centuries Russia had been an ultra conservative and backward facing nation. Even as Peter the Great pushed for progress the nobility clung to the past where selfdom was as entrenched. The Russian has always felt slighted in Western Centric history. They stood up to the Nazi onslaught without the aid of a channel, millions died, without Russian resistance to Nazi Germany drawing the vast bulk of Germany's military I doubt D-Day would have worked.

That said they have always wanted a zone of influence deep around it's frontier. They have been invaded too many times to trust treaties like we seem to do. But Russia doesn't want to be our ally, just wants to be seen as our equal. I doubt we cooperate too much with Russia, our mutual interests are few and far between as both of us see each other's politics and economics quite at odds with each other... :peace
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I have a more optimistic view on the matter.

We are light years ahead of the cold war era already.
 
shrubnose said:
The USSR was the USA's ally during WWII against NAZI Germany.Those days came to an end at the end of the war.
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Only in a technical sense, because we had a common enemy and, the only reason we had a common enemy is because Germany invaded Russia. In reality, the Soviets weren'tbout ally.
 
americanwoman said:
Time to forgive and forget or keep our distance?

From the time most of us from the US were born, it's been presented that Russia is not our friend. Recently the tables seem to be turning for a more friendlier stance in certain circles.

Whatever country you are from, do you consider Russia to be your ally or not?
Click to expand...

War generates money. We'll leave it at that.
 
soot said:
I voted, "I just like a shirtless Putin", because, let's face it, who doesn't, but also because my thinking on the topic is complicated and this was a more fun answer than just saying that.

To the topic of the thread, I don't really think that there's anything to "forgive and forget".

The Russia of today is not our historic Soviet enemy.

The nation is different, the structures of government are different, the figures occupying key positions are different, their economy is different, in fact there's little or nothing left of today's Russia that can reasonably be compared to the USSR.

When the Wall came down and the Kremlin fell, and the Union disbanded we should have wiped the slate clean and started over fresh.

The fact that we didn't can only be attributed to the fact that, as a nation, our foreign policy usually leads to more harm than it does good when it comes to anything beyond maintaining the empire (which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but there is always "fallout").

As far as relations today are concerned, Russia doesn't have to be our bestie in order to be our ally.

There are plenty of nations around the world we consider our "friends" (I'm looking at you, Israel, Pakistan, and India - this last being a "budding" alliance we seem to recently have begun cultivating) where our relationship benefits the foreign party much more than it does us and who can hardly be considered trustworthy friends, but at the same time there's no real reason to consider them enemies and the little bit we do get out of the alliance is worth it.

We're much better off working with Russia rather than against them.

Any animosity we currently hold toward Russia is much more historic than rational and pragmatic.

As has been said earlier, trust but verify, work with them when it suits us to do so and is mutually beneficial, otherwise leave them alone to conduct their foreign affairs the way they see fit while we do the same.

When we eventually have to fight China we'll be glad to have Russia aboard.
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uhhhhh... why are we eventually going to have to fight China???? And what.. you think that a war with China would be some nice civil thing like in Iraq and Afghanistan in which someone else's kids die in someplace you can't pronounce but you stay nice and safe?????? Newsflash, if that happens, a rather large percentage of the world dies, there will be a digital Armageddon, everyone's economy tanks, and the war will be fought in every city in the US. You think ISIS is scary??? They're hacks and amateurs compared to actual modern state sponsored asymmetric warfare.

What we're doing now is understanding that Russia and China both have their own interests that sometimes overlap with ours and sometimes not. We're operating carefully to cooperate with them where it makes sense, oppose them when it doesn't, and above all position ourselves such that we maintain stability and sanity so things like war don't happen. That is the right approach.
 
apdst said:
Only in a technical sense, because we had a common enemy and, the only reason we had a common enemy is because Germany invaded Russia. In reality, the Soviets weren'tbout ally.
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They were our allies in a very real sense. Or more to the point, we were their ally as they did most of the fighting in Europe during WWII. We spent early 1943 first attacking the French in Tunisia, moved on to Italy in July, and didn't invade Europe proper until June 44. WWII ended in Europe less than a year after.

Operation Barbarossa went into effect December 18th 1940. The US started to supply Russia in the Lend/Lease program in early 1941 through August 1945. A full 17% of the amount we spent in WWII was supplies given to the Russians so that they could defeat the Germans, years before we were even at war with Germany. In the US media Stalin was known as Uncle Joe. So its tough to see how much more allied we could have possibly been.
 
Mithros said:
uhhhhh... why are we eventually going to have to fight China????
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I certainly hope it doesn't happen, but I suspect it eventually will.

China wishes to be the dominant power in Asia.

They can't become that while the U.S. is.

China wishes to be the dominant power on the planet.

They can't become that while the U.S. is.

I expect that it'll eventually be settled by a shooting war, just as all other transitions of power dominance in world history have been settled.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd still consider it prudent to hedge against the eventuality, as we've been doing.

And what.. you think that a war with China would be some nice civil thing like in Iraq and Afghanistan in which someone else's kids die in someplace you can't pronounce but you stay nice and safe??????
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Just for the record, I'm a veteran Infantryman, so, you know, one of those guys who has volunteered to go fight and die in those places whose names can't be pronounced.

I thank God every day I was never called on to actually go do it, but I figure that having written that blank check I'm as entitled as anyone to my opinion.

Newsflash, if that happens, a rather large percentage of the world dies, there will be a digital Armageddon, everyone's economy tanks, and the war will be fought in every city in the US. You think ISIS is scary??? They're hacks and amateurs compared to actual modern state sponsored asymmetric warfare.
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War is an ugly thing... and all that.

I get it.

You think that as a species we've evolved beyond it?

If so, please explain.

Or are you one of those guys who thinks hope and wishful thinking is sound defense policy?

Also please explain why you're so certain that a war with China couldn't possibly be regional?

Why is it that a fight for dominance in the SCS couldn't be settled in the SCS?

Understanding of course that if China were to proliferate they stand to lose as much if not more than we do.

What we're doing now is understanding that Russia and China both have their own interests that sometimes overlap with ours and sometimes not. We're operating carefully to cooperate with them where it makes sense, oppose them when it doesn't, and above all position ourselves such that we maintain stability and sanity so things like war don't happen. That is the right approach.
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For now, and for as long as it works, I don't disagree with you.

But eventually there's going to come a point where we're either going to have to subjugate our interests to theirs, or their going to have to subjugate their interests to ours, or we're going to have to duke it out.

Sooner or later I expect that we're going to oppose them on something that they just aren't willing to be opposed on and when that statecraft fails it's going to come down to the last 100 meters of foreign policy, as it always has, and folks is gonna be shooting at other folks.

I do not wait in gleeful anticipation of that day by any means, but neither do I ignore the likely potentiality.

So when (or we could even say "if") that day does come, I'd rather have Russia siding with us than siding with China.

I think it only makes good sense, and if nothing else it strengthens our bargaining power in any effort we make to circumvent war.

Do you disagree that building a stronger hand is a winning move?

Whether it makes our negotiating position stronger, or the position from which we begin negotiations stronger?
 
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soot said:
I certainly hope it doesn't happen, but I suspect it eventually will.

China wishes to be the dominant power in Asia.

They can't become that while the U.S. is.

China wishes to be the dominant power on the planet.

They can't become that while the U.S. is.

I expect that it'll eventually be settled by a shooting war, just as all other transitions of power dominance in world history have been settled.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd still consider it prudent to hedge against the eventuality, as we've been doing.



Just for the record, I'm a veteran Infantryman, so, you know, one of those guys who has volunteered to go fight and die in those places whose names can't be pronounced.

I thank God every day I was never called on to actually go do it, but I figure that having written that blank check I'm as entitled as anyone to my opinion.



War is an ugly thing... and all that.

I get it.

You think that as a species we've evolved beyond it?

If so, please explain.

Or are you one of those guys who thinks hope and wishful thinking is sound defense policy?

Also please explain why you're so certain that a war with China couldn't possibly be regional?

Why is it that a fight for dominance in the SCS couldn't be settled in the SCS?

Understanding of course that if China were to proliferate they stand to lose as much if not more than we do.



For now, and for as long as it works, I don't disagree with you.

But eventually there's going to come a point where we're either going to have to subjugate our interests to theirs, or their going to have to subjugate their interests to ours, or we're going to have to duke it out.

Sooner or later I expect that we're going to oppose them on something that they just aren't willing to be opposed on and when that statecraft fails it's going to come down to the last 100 meters of foreign policy, as it always has, and folks is gonna be shooting at other folks.

I do not wait in gleeful anticipation of that day by any means, but neither do I ignore the likely potentiality.

So when (or we could even say "if") that day does come, I'd rather have Russia siding with us than siding with China.

I think it only makes good sense, and if nothing else it strengthens our bargaining power in any effort we make to circumvent war.

Do you disagree that building a stronger hand is a winning move?

Whether it makes our negotiating position stronger, or the position from which we begin negotiations stronger?
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First much props for your service. Punching that ticket definitely gives you more credibility.

And yes, we should do everything we can to advance US interests. That means working with China and Russia when it makes sense and opposing them when it doesn't.

But regional wars between major powers aren't possible. You can have occasional surrogate conflicts, Afghanistan in the 80's, Vietnam, Korea etc.. But in those no one has enough stake to keep them from pulling out without losing too much face. There just isn't that possibility with a direct shooting war with China. You can't back down when your sovereignty is threatened, you can only escalate and retaliate. Even if it starts out small there just isn't an exit strategy. And it would end up being a heck of a lot worse for the US than WWII was.

China can field something like a billion soldiers. It's impossible for any side to "win" under those circumstances. Second, the world is vastly more interconnected than it was in 1943 and the Chinese would be significantly outclassed in conventional weapon systems. China can't win an air or naval war against the US and the US would be insane to fight the Chinese on land. When forces are unbalanced in such a way that they would fight in different paradigms it means asymmetric warfare. If I were them I'd litter the US with splinter cells of Chinese agents. Fund terrorists. They could use encryption and the Internet for C2. What are we going to do, shut it off? Cripple our economy and ability to produce what we need to fight? Even if we could catch 99.9% they could still easily attack every city in the US.|

War with China is dangerous and stupid. But you're right that it's not impossible. And that should be terrifying.
 
Mithros said:
They were our allies in a very real sense. Or more to the point, we were their ally as they did most of the fighting in Europe during WWII. We spent early 1943 first attacking the French in Tunisia, moved on to Italy in July, and didn't invade Europe proper until June 44. WWII ended in Europe less than a year after.

Operation Barbarossa went into effect December 18th 1940. The US started to supply Russia in the Lend/Lease program in early 1941 through August 1945. A full 17% of the amount we spent in WWII was supplies given to the Russians so that they could defeat the Germans, years before we were even at war with Germany. In the US media Stalin was known as Uncle Joe. So its tough to see how much more allied we could have possibly been.
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Operation Barbarosa was launched in June 1941.
 
apdst said:
Operation Barbarosa was launched in June 1941.
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Um, point being?

On December 18th 1940, Hitler signed order 21 codenamed Barbarosa. This was the effective start to official operations against the Russians. Military decisions took months to implement in WWII. Logistics. You couldn't just send out a strike force from a conveniently located carrier.

Regardless whatever your point was, it in no way supports your view that the US was only technically an ally of Russia because we were fighting the same people. We supporting Russia long before we were at war with Germany. Hell, we used the attack on Pearl harbor as an excuse to go to war with Germany. We were as much an ally to Russia as we were to England. (We didn't actually get along with England during WWII. One of Ikes most difficult jobs was keeping us both on the same side)
 
Mithros said:
Um, point being?

On December 18th 1940, Hitler signed order 21 codenamed Barbarosa. This was the effective start to official operations against the Russians. Military decisions took months to implement in WWII. Logistics. You couldn't just send out a strike force from a conveniently located carrier.

Regardless whatever your point was, it in no way supports your view that the US was only technically an ally of Russia because we were fighting the same people. We supporting Russia long before we were at war with Germany. Hell, we used the attack on Pearl harbor as an excuse to go to war with Germany. We were as much an ally to Russia as we were to England. (We didn't actually get along with England during WWII. One of Ikes most difficult jobs was keeping us both on the same side)
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The point being, you posted erroneous information attempting to create Soviet apologism.

Germany declared War on The United States, not the other way around. Another error.

Germany and The Soviet Union were actual allies until June 1941. They launched a joint invasion of Poland in 1939.

The difference being, the invasion of Poland was voluntary. The Soviet Unions war with Germany wasn't. Stalin was perfectly content to do nothing, while Hitler took over Europe.

Like I said, The Soviets were an ally only because we had a common enemy.
 
ocean515 said:
In my youth, at 10am, I spent the last Friday of every month during the school year under a desk, listening to air raid sirens. All because of the threat coming from the USSR.

Things have changed since then. The USSR is no longer, and the name Russia has returned. The fallout shelter signs, and stockpiled supplies, have been removed.

I would reply to your question the same way Ronald Reagan did. Trust, but verify. I suppose that means trust, but always have a quick exit ready.
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You must be really old :lol:, because I never did that.
 
Phys251 said:
Not just no but HELL NO.

Trump's capitulation to Putin is a huge slap in the face to all the men and women who worked tirelessly throughout the 20th century to keep us safe from the Soviets. But now? Now we've got a president-elect who wants to let the Kremlin walk right on in.
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:roll:
 
apdst said:
The point being, you posted erroneous information attempting to create Soviet apologism.

Germany declared War on The United States, not the other way around. Another error.

Germany and The Soviet Union were actual allies until June 1941. They launched a joint invasion of Poland in 1939.

The difference being, the invasion of Poland was voluntary. The Soviet Unions war with Germany wasn't. Stalin was perfectly content to do nothing, while Hitler took over Europe.

Like I said, The Soviets were an ally only because we had a common enemy.
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To create soviet apologism??? lol, What are you on? Do I sound like a fellow Trumpanzie? Russia is not our friend now, but they were during WWII.

We were supplying Russia with equipment as early as June 22nd 1941 in the pre Lend/Lease program in which Russia paid us in gold and minerals. They were officially in the lend lease program's first protocol from October 1 1941 in an first protocol. They were supplied by the US and delivered by the UK under US financing. We entered into another protocol with the Russians before Pearl Harbor in Dec 1942.

Yes we supported the Russians because they were fighting the Germans. But that's also why we were helping the English. The conflict between the US and Russians started at the end of WWII when our interests sharply diverged. Blame for that is complicated. But suffice it to say that people made decisions based on what was politically expedient rather than thinking and not doing dumb things.
 
Mithros said:
To create soviet apologism??? lol, What are you on? Do I sound like a fellow Trumpanzie? Russia is not our friend now, but they were during WWII.

We were supplying Russia with equipment as early as June 22nd 1941 in the pre Lend/Lease program in which Russia paid us in gold and minerals. They were officially in the lend lease program's first protocol from October 1 1941 in an first protocol. They were supplied by the US and delivered by the UK under US financing. We entered into another protocol with the Russians before Pearl Harbor in Dec 1942.

Yes we supported the Russians because they were fighting the Germans. But that's also why we were helping the English. The conflict between the US and Russians started at the end of WWII when our interests sharply diverged. Blame for that is complicated. But suffice it to say that people made decisions based on what was politically expedient rather than thinking and not doing dumb things.
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Before Pearl Harbor in 1942? :lamo
 
apdst said:
Before Pearl Harbor in 1942? :lamo
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So now we're denying easily verifiable history. Bravo.

The Lend-Lease act was enacted March 11th 1941. Roosevelt appointing US Steel exec Edward Stettinius Jr. to head the Lend-Lease office. Note: that means that the US gives Russia equipment, and they worry about paying for what gets destroyed later.

Phases of Lend-Lease Deliveries from the USA to Russia
  • Pre 'Lend-Lease': June 22th, 1941 to September 30th, 1941 (paid for in gold)
  • First Protocol: October 1st, 1941 to June 30th, 1942 (signed October 1st, 1941)
  • Second Protocol: July 1st, 1942 to June30th, 1943 (signed October 6th, 1942)
  • Third Protocol: July 1st, 1943 to June 30, 1944 (signed October 19t, 1943)
  • Fourth Protocol: July 1st, 1944, (signed April 17th, 1945), formally ended May 12th, 1945 (but deliveries continued under 'Milepost' until September 2nd, 1945 when Japan capitulated.)
  • September 20th, 1945: All 'Lend-Lease' to Russia was terminated
 
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