Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under...[W:174,331]

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

I would think that would be common sense based on what's going on in the country when it comes to sexual orientation and gender identity. Currently there are jurisdiction where discrimination against them for sexual orientation gender identity is legal, even laws are being made singling them out, discriminating against people without due process. I personally do not support such repugnant practices or wants.

Click to expand...

Definitely, LGBT people should have equal rights and their rights should be enforced.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

I would think that would be common sense based on what's going on in the country when it comes to sexual orientation and gender identity. Currently there are jurisdiction where discrimination against them for sexual orientation gender identity is legal, even laws are being made singling them out, discriminating against people without due process. I personally do not support such repugnant practices or wants.

Click to expand...

See, this is the problem. You are ASSUMING people understand what you are trying to express. I would not have asked what civil rights you are talking about if I already knew.

The only issue I am aware of currently in the public eye relates to the bathroom/locker room issue.

Is that a civil rights issue, since there is access to a restroom or locker room just not the one the individual might prefer to use? Typically, the issue seems to revolve around women's restrooms/locker rooms because men don't usually care who goes in a men's room as long as they can get to use it too.

So please, enlighten me. What civil and or constitutional rights do you feel alt-gender individuals don't currently have?

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

SCitizen said:

In all honesty, I should be able to sue those who do discriminate against me for Depression and Autism, but that is not possible.

Click to expand...

Depending on the type of discrimination you are talking about you most certainly can sue and it is very possible.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Captain Adverse said:

See, this is the problem. You are ASSUMING people understand what you are trying to express. I would not have asked what civil rights you are talking about if I already knew.

Click to expand...

You are correct I do assume people know what civil rights are and what I'm talking about especially with all the media and all the overage this has gotten over the years and with choosing to particpate in the discussion. But you are right people very well may not now what civil rights are or anything about this issue as many prove. But that's their problem no mine

Captain Adverse said:

The only issue I am aware of currently in the public eyes relates to the bathroom/locker room issue.

Click to expand...

No that's just the ones people that support discrimination against that criteria cry about the most. Housing, employment(hiring/firing) medical treatment etc is still an issue. It is slowly being

Captain Adverse said:

Is that a civil rights issue, since there is access to a restroom or locker room just not the one the individual might prefer to use?

Click to expand...

was it a civil rights issue when blacks had access to restrooms and water fountains just not the ones everybody else can?
was it a civil rights issues when women could work just not in jobs others could?
was it a civil rights issue when blacks/gays could get married but not like others?
Of course it was, more importantly what made it even more concrete that it was a civil rights issue is because LAWS were made against those things without due process.

Captain Adverse said:

Typically, the issue seems to revolve around women's restrooms/locker rooms because men don't usually care who goes in a men's room as long as they can get to use it too.

Click to expand...

Well that one hot topic issue is meaningless to me because feelings, hyperbole and fear tactics don't concern me when discussing anti discrimination and rights.

Captain Adverse said:

So please, enlighten me. What civil and or constitutional rights do you feel alt-gender individuals don't currently have?

Click to expand...

See above.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

Who here is supporting extra rights?
Who here thinks you should be FORCED to buy into others believes?

Click to expand...

Well, you did post this poll:

Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil rights?

As somebody else pointed out, you already have all the rights any other citizen has, so whatever else you want must extra rights.

Why do you think you need an extra special law unless you want extra special rights?

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

Depending on the type of discrimination you are talking about you most certainly can sue and it is very possible.

Click to expand...

In reality it is unprovable. But definitely Depression and Autism are obstacles on all levels. Being LGBT is not a disability but a social disadvantage -- these people must be assured of equal rights.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

Push it? I see it more as simply honor it like the rest of our protections. And to answer your question, I think, I simply leave it up to doctors of course.

Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

SCitizen said:

In reality it is unprovable. But definitely Depression and Autism are obstacles on all levels. Being LGBT is not a disability but a social disadvantage -- these people must be assured of equal rights.

Click to expand...

It's just as proveable as any other discrimination. The person has to be bigoted and stupid enough to admit it or do something blatant because they are proud of their bigotry. That's actually one of the things that's so confusing to me. Those types of people are so stupid they get themselves in trouble by making it obvious. How dumb can they be? There's so many excuses that could be given that would hide discrimination but some choose not to or aren't smart enough too. I don't get it.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

jimbo said:

Well, you did post this poll:

Click to expand...

Correct and nothign in the OP is forcing others to believe anything nor is it granting special rights.

jimbo said:

Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil rights?

Click to expand...

Yes which does nothing to force others to believe anything nor is it granting special rights.

jimbo said:

As somebody else pointed out, you already have all the rights any other citizen has, so whatever else you want must extra rights.

Click to expand...

And as others pointed out they were wrong so is your assumptions, this is why you haven't answered the question

jimbo said:

Why do you think you need an extra special law unless you want extra special rights?

Click to expand...

I don't think we need them it's a strawmen you made up and haven't been able to support. So I'll ask you again. Who here is supporting extra rights? Who here thinks you should be FORCED to buy into others believes? Please do you best to answer this time.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

Exactly, WE are not currently protected based on the criteria in the OP.

Click to expand...

Everybody already has equal rights...

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

You are correct I do assume people know what civil rights are and what I'm talking about especially with all the media and all the overage this has gotten over the years and with choosing to particpate in the discussion. But you are right people very well may not now what civil rights are or anything about this issue as many prove. But that's their problem no mine

Click to expand...

(Sigh) I know what civil rights are. I believe alt-gendered citizens already have all the civil rights any other citizens have. You have yet to identify a single civil (or Constitutional) right they are not being allowed to exercise. THAT is the difference. Now I ask you again, please list any SPECIFIC civil or Constitutional right(s) alt-gendered citizens are being denied. Otherwise, you are basing your position on a fallacy of "common knowledge."

LaylaWindu said:

No that's just the ones people that support discrimination against that criteria cry about the most. Housing, employment(hiring/firing) medical treatment etc is still an issue.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I am not aware of anyone being denied under legal authority housing because they are alt-gendered, employment because they are alt-gendered, or medical treatment because they are alt-gendered. All of these can be challenged in civil court by alt-gendered citizens just like any other citizen can.

LaylaWindu said:

1. was it a civil rights issue when blacks had access to restrooms and water fountains just not the ones everybody else can?
2. was it a civil rights issues when women could work just not in jobs others could?
3. was it a civil rights issue when blacks/gays could get married but not like others?
Of course it was, more importantly what made it even more concrete that it was a civil rights issue is because LAWS were made against those things without due process.

Click to expand...

1. More complex than simply that; the facilities were not "equal," they were often derelict. Moreover, whites could take precedence in using the black facilities whenever the white facility was full. Most importantly though, the sole purpose was to enforce a second class citizenship.

In the case of alt-gendered citizens the facilities are truly equal; no one can take precedence as everyone waits their turn in line; and as stated it typically only affects women's facilities with the intent not to create a second class of citizenship but rather maintain old social mores regarding the sexes. But I am on record as fully in support of unisex restrooms (as is much of the country).

2. What jobs are alt-gendered denied? To the best of my knowledge one can only be denied a job on the basis of qualifications and perhaps one's criminal record. Everything else is actionable in civil court regardless of your gender.

3. Trans people can get married under the same ruling that allows same-sex couples to get married. Literally, if you are of legal age you can marry anyone of legal age who agrees to marry you.

LaylaWindu said:

Well that one hot topic issue is meaningless to me because feelings, hyperbole and fear tactics don't concern me when discussing anti discrimination and rights.

Click to expand...

And yet you list the topic as cited and explained in item 1 above. No "feelings, hyperbole, and fear tactics;" just a "hot topic" you list as discriminatory. :roll:

So aside from the bathrooms, which is (or should be) addressed in courts...anything else that is not already protected?

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

LaylaWindu said:

I don't know what country you live in but in america that is obviously NOT true.

Click to expand...

How so Layla? Do people identifying as gay, transgender or whatever have the right to free speech? The right to moral conscience and religious liberty etc? Articles 3 to 12 of the Bill of Rights make up the first 10 amendments of the Constitution that are for all people. The Civil Rights Act of the 60's was about people of color being given the same damn rights white folks had enjoyed from the beginning. It was a regional thing that hindered the Black man/woman from being treated equally ! And it happened to be the minority party of Republiccans who worked with LBJ to ensure that the Civil Rights act passed because the same damn Dixiecrat Democrats in the Southern states were opposed to its passage and filibustered the bill.

After the Civil War, there were over 5000 Black people who were elected to serve in office from local, state to federal offices. Race relations were mending until one Woodrow Wilson came to be the president and initiated segregation policies in the Federal government where he would not allow Blacks to work with Whites in the same offices. Oh true story. The Democrat Dixiecrats had a real friend in Woodrow Wilson.

Woodrow Wilson set back all gains that had been made in race relations. He is one of the biggest POS presidents we have ever had to come to power. However, the racist Dixiecrats (Democrats of the Southern states loved him because they too looked at Blacks as second class citizens. They had a friend in Wilson).In case you are not familiar with history, Wilson was one of the progressive presidents to serve in the Progressive era during the turn of the 20th century. Progressivism at its finest!

It wasn't until the 60's the Civil Rights Act was passed and ended the Southern states ruled by the Dixiecrat Democrat elites from being allowed to discriminate. In fact it was Republicans in the House and Senate that worked with LBJ to pass the Civil Rights Act while the Democrat Dixiecrats filibustered it.
When Johnson signed the Bill the first two pens he used went to the Republicans in the House and Senate that labored to get the bill passed.

Now you want to declare sexual orientation and gender identity be attached to Civil Rights? You are really reaching here without a damn leg to stand on. In fact I will go as far to say you cheapen the actual sacrifice of those who fought for equality of Blacks. How you have sex or who you want to identify as a gender has nothing to do with civil rights. Shame on you.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Harry Guerrilla said:

Just to throw a bone into this.

Having protected groups can backfire.
I have a hypothesis that White men are more likely to be hired, not because they're better workers, but because you can fire them, without the worry of discrimination claims.

Click to expand...

I think that hypothesis is correct.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Captain Adverse said:

I voted "other" for the following reasons.

1. I believe firmly in the existence of Sexual Orientation (the spectrum of heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual [which includes lesbians]). I believe it is a biological imperative imprinted by DNA, hormones as the fetus is developing, or a combination of both. Thus, I consider this something like one's skin color, eye color, hair type, etc., i.e. an inherent characteristic outside of the control of the individual. Like race, sex, age, etc., this is clearly something that should be protected.

2. Gender Identity I am not so certain of. As a libertarian I believe a person has a right to live their life in whatever manner they choose, even how they perceive themselves in regards to gender. However, unless they are actually undergoing a transgender progression leading to a sex change, I don't believe anyone should be required by law to adhere to their expectations. For example, I am not going to call anyone Xe, Xer, or any of the other new-speak labels; nor will I accept the label "cis-gendered."

That's because I believe that there are only TWO genders; male and female in species Homo Sapiens. If you are a female and believe you are a male? I'll accept your belief and call you he, him, or man. Same for a male who believe he is a female; I'll call him any of the female pronouns. Moreover, I don't care which restroom you prefer to use, or how you like to dress, because it's not important to me. I don't feel threatened by it.

But a trans person already has all the civil rights a citizen is entitled to. So until science confirms this...variety of genders, I'll stick with my position. You can do what you will with your own life, but don't expect everyone to accept and affirm that belief system. Nor should it be a legal requirement.

Click to expand...

Well stated. You said essentially what I was thinking, but you stated it much better.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Goshin said:

No, we should all have the same legal protections, no special "protected classes". One law for all.

Click to expand...

In theory I agree, but too many people don't treat all equally. Many even go out of their way to teeat unequal.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Hawkeye10 said:

I am for making it law that U R either M or F, and you are either straight, gay, or Bi, them be your choices, your only choices.

Pick and try to stay with what U pick.

Please.

THANX.

Click to expand...

So you wish to limit my rights in an area that causes you no harm at all?

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Goshin said:

No, we should all have the same legal protections, no special "protected classes". One law for all.

Click to expand...

That would be nice, but a lack of everyone getting treated equally before the law was what started the need to say one can't treat "X" differently.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

radcen said:

In theory I agree, but too many people don't treat all equally. Many even go out of their way to teeat unequal.

Click to expand...

because they dont have too, people have a right not to accept other people, equality under the law means goverment will treat everyone equally under the law they create, people dont make any laws at all to be unfair. goverment works for the people and must be fair, people work in their own interest, not in the interest of other people

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

RetiredUSN said:

At what age would want these rights Layla? I am all for mature people being happy about themselves, and doing whatever makes them happy within the scope of not hurting anyone else. If laws are really needed to protect the LBGT, then I would be in full support of them. Life is hard enough already, and I have been around enough LBGT to see their struggles.

But, I am against parents and children making these decisions for example.............a 9 yr. old. A young kid could flip flop overnight with he/she believes and thinks.

I dunno.......what do you think?

Click to expand...

So what? Allow the kid to flip flop. If the kids is born female physically and spend the first part of their life claiming male, then flips at say 10 to female, so what? Hell if the kid is born ambitious, then give it a neutral name and let them decide as they grow up. I do agree that no surgery or hormones should be introduced until they can legally decide for themselves (not necessarily 18). Therapy should be included, but only to determine if there is an actual disphoria or the source is something else, and to help them make their own decision, not the one desired by their family or others in society.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Henrin said:

No. all anti-discrimination laws should be repealed. I do not support expanding bad ideas that violate the rights of the people.

Also, forcing people to call someone a he when they want to call them a she or vice versa is simply a violation of their first amendment rights.

Click to expand...

No one anywhere is trying, by force of law, to force another to call them something else. Right now, if you wanted, you could call another male by all female pronouns, and there is nothing legally that can be done. Social pressure might say otherwise, but social pressure should never be illegal. And yes there is a legal difference between social pressure and harassment.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

radcen said:

In theory I agree, but too many people don't treat all equally. Many even go out of their way to teeat unequal.

Click to expand...

That will never change. Some group will always find another appalling. Some find Christians to be morons. Others find Jews nasty. Some find Blacks disgusting while some Blacks find Whites disgusting.

This isn't something that can be legislated and still have freedom and liberty. And it bothers me so many are wanting to do so even though we have ample laws on the books that protect everyone. It as if there is this notion growing in society that want authoritarian leadership that will pimp their special interests instead of choosing leadership whose basis is on Constitutional principles.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

joG said:

And? So, what does that have to do with the price of cheese?

Click to expand...

About the same as the spiel she responded to did.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

both should be protected.

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

apdst said:

I support it 100%. That's why I'm going to ifentifyidentify as a woman at my job and exp3ct special treatment because of it.

Click to expand...

Special treatment like lower pay?

Re: Do you support protecting Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity under civil righ

Helix said:

both should be protected.

Click to expand...

They already are.