Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drunk?

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

Well, it is a matter of responsibility, but you can really only talk about legal responsibility and only the criminal is legally responsible for their crime. And while I agree with you, there may have been some causal link between what the victim did and the crime, heck, leaving the house is causally linked to being a victim of crime too. Do we get mad at people for leaving the house too?

Click to expand...

No of course not because leaving your house is normal and customary behaviour. It is not the expected norm for someone to get drop dead drunk and render themselves unusually vulnerable to being raped or otherwise taken advantage of.

If a driver is not wearing a seatbelt and gets rear ended causing them to fly through the wind shield then they have set themselves up to be killed by the vehicle following them. They did not do what they were supposed to do to protect themselves.

Same thing applies to someone who drowns when their row boat tips over and they were not wearing a life preserver.

Same for a person who crosses a street without first looking both ways and gets hit by a car or having a gun stolen when left out in clear sight.

The drunken rape victim contributed to the conditions which lead to the rape. Someone who is raped while just walking down the street in broad daylight did nothing out of the ordinary and thus can not be complicit in their rape. Walking alone in a dark, secluded area at night may be considered taking an unusual risk and ignoring that risk to their potential peril.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Russell797 said:

No of course not because leaving your house is normal and customary behaviour. It is not the expected norm for someone to get drop dead drunk and render themselves unusually vulnerable to being raped or otherwise taken advantage of.

Click to expand...

It depends on who you're talking about I suppose.

If a driver is not wearing a seatbelt and gets rear ended causing them to fly through the wind shield then they have set themselves up to be killed by the vehicle following them. They did not do what they were supposed to do to protect themselves.

Click to expand...

That's why we have laws in most places mandating seatbelts. However, when it comes to clothes, it would never fly to outlaw slutty clothing, that falls within freedom of expression under the Constitution. So those are two different things.

Same thing applies to someone who drowns when their row boat tips over and they were not wearing a life preserver.

Click to expand...

We're also seeing some laws come into play in that arena too.

Same for a person who crosses a street without first looking both ways and gets hit by a car or having a gun stolen when left out in clear sight.

Click to expand...

That's why we have crosswalks and laws against jaywalking.

The drunken rape victim contributed to the conditions which lead to the rape. Someone who is raped while just walking down the street in broad daylight did nothing out of the ordinary and thus can not be complicit in their rape. Walking alone in a dark, secluded area at night may be considered taking an unusual risk and ignoring that risk to their potential peril.

Click to expand...

I agree with you in theory, but what do you do about it in practice? That's the question. Do you not prosecute rapists who rape drunk victims? Do you tell the victims it's their own fault? What do you really want here?

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

It depends on who you're talking about I suppose.



That's why we have laws in most places mandating seatbelts. However, when it comes to clothes, it would never fly to outlaw slutty clothing, that falls within freedom of expression under the Constitution. So those are two different things.



We're also seeing some laws come into play in that arena too.



That's why we have crosswalks and laws against jaywalking.



I agree with you in theory, but what do you do about it in practice? That's the question. Do you not prosecute rapists who rape drunk victims? Do you tell the victims it's their own fault? What do you really want here?

Click to expand...

I don't want anything. I'm just responding to the question which is the topic of this thread. It's not a crime to act stupidly. The decision to rape is totally the responsibility of the rapist and not the victim. However I am pointing out the fact that some of the circumstances which lead to the rape are under the control of the victim in cases such as this hypothetical example. The moral of the story is do all you can to prevent yourself from becoming a victim of tragic outcomes in all walks of life. If you don't or won't then you stand a greater chance of something bad happening to you. It's just a fact of life which is ignored to one's potential peril.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Russell797 said:

Are they complicit in the fact that they were raped? From a cause and effect perspective, if they hadn't made themselves easy prey they likely would not have been raped.

Click to expand...

That can be said of many crimes, including mugging, assaults, murder, and so many more. Does walking down a dark alley in a questionable neighborhood make the assailant any less responsible in their crime?

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

JumpinJack said:

By claiming the victim is partly responsible for CAUSING the crime (which is what "partly responsible" for a crime means), you are making the victim partly responsible for the criminal's actions. Which is not the case.

It is NOT partly responsible for a crime to do any of the things that men have claimed over the years to excuse their own criminal behavior, like dressing sexy, wearing miniskirts, being out late at night alone, being drunk, having had sex in the past, going somewhere where she knew there would be drunk men, and so on and so forth.

These things have been tried in court, and the law has finally deemed it INADMISSIBLE to try and blame the victim because of what she was wearing or her past or other behaviors OTHER THAN CONSENT in the case on rape.

You MUST HAVE CONSENT to have sex with someone. YOU CANNOT GET CONSENT FROM AN UNCONSCIOUS BODY. It is irrelevant that she got unconscious from drinking too much and passed out. That in no way makes any action of a criminal partly the victim's fault.

To say a victim is partly responsible for a crime places the criminal's actions on the victim. Each person is responsible for his/her behavior. Period.

The judge has been removed from a new rape case, because of his bias or misunderstanding of the law in rape cases. It is irrelevant that the victim was drunk or unconscious except to the point that she was unable to give consent. She was not responsible in any way for another person's actions.

Click to expand...

I think you are missing the point that many are trying to make. As far a legality goes, aside from whether or not she did and was capable of consenting to sex, none of her actions prior can be applied to lessen or dismiss what the assailant did. I haven't seen a person here yet deny this. However, legal responsibility is not always and automatically equal to personal responsibility. If someone puts the self in a situation where they are likely to be raped then they have played a part in their own assault. That does not mean that in every rape, or even a majority of rapes, the victim took actions to increase that risk. But it cannot be denied that this has and does occur. Does a victim bear a responsibility for putting themselves in a high risk situation? Yes is the victim to blame for the crime itself? No. And no, not all of those things that you listed (manner of dress, having sex in the past, etc) are contributes to putting one's self into a high risk situation. Walking alone where assaults and rapes are know to happen? That contributes.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

However, when it comes to clothes, it would never fly to outlaw slutty clothing, that falls within freedom of expression under the Constitution.

Click to expand...

Not to mention subjective views as to what constitutes "slutty" clothing.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

maquiscat said:

That can be said of many crimes, including mugging, assaults, murder, and so many more. Does walking down a dark alley in a questionable neighborhood make the assailant any less responsible in their crime?

Click to expand...

No. It implies nothing about the assailant whatsoever. What I am saying is that the onus is on every one of us to be proactive in our own safety.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

Well, it is a matter of responsibility, but you can really only talk about legal responsibility and only the criminal is legally responsible for their crime. And while I agree with you, there may have been some causal link between what the victim did and the crime, heck, leaving the house is causally linked to being a victim of crime too. Do we get mad at people for leaving the house too?

Click to expand...

Forget legal responsibility. That's not the issue. Responsibility implies culpability. Only the perpetrator of the crime is responsible for it. The victim can be complicit in setting of the circumstances which lead to the crime through poor judgement or just by acting stupidly.

Acting in ways which reduce YOUR chances of a positive outcome is on YOU.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Russell797 said:

Forget legal responsibility. That's not the issue. Responsibility implies culpability. Only the perpetrator of the crime is responsible for it. The victim can be complicit in setting of the circumstances which lead to the crime through poor judgement or just by acting stupidly.

Acting in ways which reduce YOUR chances of a positive outcome is on YOU.

Click to expand...

That may be true, but other than academically, what difference does it make to the discussion? People make bad decisions all the time.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

That may be true, but other than academically, what difference does it make to the discussion? People make bad decisions all the time.

Click to expand...

If we use the word "responsible" then no, the victim is in no way culpable.

If we use the word "contribute" then yes they can help create the environment leading to their own outcome.

If dealing with the legal system then responsibility is the proper wording.

If dealing with cause and effect then contribute is the correct wording.

People do make bad decisions and sometimes when the do they pay a price in the very real world of cause and effect. Being proactive in one's own welfare makes a big difference.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Russell797 said:

If we use the word "responsible" then no, the victim is in no way culpable.

If we use the word "contribute" then yes they can help create the environment leading to their own outcome.

If dealing with the legal system then responsibility is the proper wording.

If dealing with cause and effect then contribute is the correct wording.

People do make bad decisions and sometimes when the do they pay a price in the very real world of cause and effect. Being proactive in one's own welfare makes a big difference.

Click to expand...

And all of that is fine and I'm the first one to point out people being irresponsible and stupid, but what do you honestly suggest we do about it? Other than pointing fingers, what solutions are there that actually work in the real world? People are stupid and they have the right to be stupid, we can't exactly pass laws against stupidity or the majority of people will be in prison. The only thing that can happen is the reintroduction of shame into society, where people care what others think about them and don't do stupid things because they don't want to be ashamed, but that's largely gone, like it or not, mostly at the behest of the political and social left. They don't want people being made to feel bad for the stupid things they do. But if you can't pass laws against being stupid, if you can't even define what dressing slutty is, or being in a dangerous situation is, then what do you suggest actually be done, without changing society as a whole?

It's a problem that I agree exists, but with a solution I don't think exists.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Cephus said:

And all of that is fine and I'm the first one to point out people being irresponsible and stupid, but what do you honestly suggest we do about it? Other than pointing fingers, what solutions are there that actually work in the real world? People are stupid and they have the right to be stupid, we can't exactly pass laws against stupidity or the majority of people will be in prison. The only thing that can happen is the reintroduction of shame into society, where people care what others think about them and don't do stupid things because they don't want to be ashamed, but that's largely gone, like it or not, mostly at the behest of the political and social left. They don't want people being made to feel bad for the stupid things they do. But if you can't pass laws against being stupid, if you can't even define what dressing slutty is, or being in a dangerous situation is, then what do you suggest actually be done, without changing society as a whole?

It's a problem that I agree exists, but with a solution I don't think exists.

Click to expand...

All we can do is to remind people to take proper precautions in life. Try not to set yourself up for bad outcomes if you can help it. It's personal risk management. The more chances one takes the greater the likelihood of something bad happening. It's just common sense I would think, but you know what they say about common sense...it's not so common.

Learn to understand what behaviours are risky. Be smart and act accordingly. Leaving your future to chance is foolhardy. Take calculated risks. Don't just jump in blind. Follow the safety rules. If you must take undue risk, be even more aware of your surroundings and vigilant in protecting your own well being.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

maquiscat said:

I think you are missing the point that many are trying to make. As far a legality goes, aside from whether or not she did and was capable of consenting to sex, none of her actions prior can be applied to lessen or dismiss what the assailant did. I haven't seen a person here yet deny this. However, legal responsibility is not always and automatically equal to personal responsibility. If someone puts the self in a situation where they are likely to be raped then they have played a part in their own assault. That does not mean that in every rape, or even a majority of rapes, the victim took actions to increase that risk. But it cannot be denied that this has and does occur. Does a victim bear a responsibility for putting themselves in a high risk situation? Yes is the victim to blame for the crime itself? No. And no, not all of those things that you listed (manner of dress, having sex in the past, etc) are contributes to putting one's self into a high risk situation. Walking alone where assaults and rapes are know to happen? That contributes.

Click to expand...

YOU are the one missing the point.

Before the law was behind the "blame the victim" mentality, men blamed the women. Now that the law has ruled that irrelevant, it's the "It's not the LEGALITY of it, but she is STILL at least partly to blame for MY ACTIONS."

Here's the way it has gone historically (read up on this):

1. The devil made me do it, judge
2. She's a loose woman, so I was entitled to have sex with her
3. She was dressed like she wanted it....trashy and all
4. She was dancing suggestively, so she seduced me into raping her
5. She was wearing an indecent, sexy outfit....I couldn't help myself, and she knew the sort of response she'd get
6. She was out really late, alone, and was drunk. What did she think would happen? I'm not totally responsible for what she did.
7. I'm a man. I can't control myself. Women know this, and should act and dress accordingly. Otherwise, she bears at least partial responsibility for what I do to her.

The Taliban and muslims take this attitude, btw. If a man rapes or assaults a woman, it's HER fault, at least partly, for wearing something suggestive, showing an ankle or arm. Because their view is that this is hte nature of men, so women need to guard against this. It's not the man's fault that he attacks women.

So whatever spin you want to put on it....it's the same thing as all the above. It is NOT in any way the victim's fault for another person's actions. YOU are in TOTAL control of YOUR behavior. YOU are responsible and accountable for your actions.

That is true, whether you run across a drunk in the street and you stab him, or rob him, or kidnap him. That is a criminal response and action that you alone are responsible for.

If we start blaming victims, where does it stop. If you are out past midnight, I could say that you are partly responsible for your being murdered, since nothin' good happens past midnight out on the streets. Or we could say that a man who cashed his paycheck for whatever reason, instead of depositing it, was partly responsible for his mugging. Where does it end? How low does the woman's top have to be to be considered suggestive? How late is she allowed to be out before deemed contributing to her murder?

YOU are responsible for your actions alone. 100% responsible. It doesn't matter if the person is drunk or sober, young or old, out late or not, has cash on him or not. YOU are responsible for mugging, murder, rape, assault.

Example: If someone walks up to you and cusses at you and gets in your face, and you hit him...YOU are 100% responsible for the assault, and will have to pay his damages. YOU are responsible for your actions. Only you can decide not to assault someone. No one else has control over your actions.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

JumpinJack said:

YOU are the one missing the point.

Before the law was behind the "blame the victim" mentality, men blamed the women. Now that the law has ruled that irrelevant, it's the "It's not the LEGALITY of it, but she is STILL at least partly to blame for MY ACTIONS."

Here's the way it has gone historically (read up on this):

1. The devil made me do it, judge
2. She's a loose woman, so I was entitled to have sex with her
3. She was dressed like she wanted it....trashy and all
4. She was dancing suggestively, so she seduced me into raping her
5. She was wearing an indecent, sexy outfit....I couldn't help myself, and she knew the sort of response she'd get
6. She was out really late, alone, and was drunk. What did she think would happen? I'm not totally responsible for what she did.
7. I'm a man. I can't control myself. Women know this, and should act and dress accordingly. Otherwise, she bears at least partial responsibility for what I do to her.

The Taliban and muslims take this attitude, btw. If a man rapes or assaults a woman, it's HER fault, at least partly, for wearing something suggestive, showing an ankle or arm. Because their view is that this is hte nature of men, so women need to guard against this. It's not the man's fault that he attacks women.

So whatever spin you want to put on it....it's the same thing as all the above. It is NOT in any way the victim's fault for another person's actions. YOU are in TOTAL control of YOUR behavior. YOU are responsible and accountable for your actions.

That is true, whether you run across a drunk in the street and you stab him, or rob him, or kidnap him. That is a criminal response and action that you alone are responsible for.

If we start blaming victims, where does it stop. If you are out past midnight, I could say that you are partly responsible for your being murdered, since nothin' good happens past midnight out on the streets. Or we could say that a man who cashed his paycheck for whatever reason, instead of depositing it, was partly responsible for his mugging. Where does it end? How low does the woman's top have to be to be considered suggestive? How late is she allowed to be out before deemed contributing to her murder?

YOU are responsible for your actions alone. 100% responsible. It doesn't matter if the person is drunk or sober, young or old, out late or not, has cash on him or not. YOU are responsible for mugging, murder, rape, assault.

Example: If someone walks up to you and cusses at you and gets in your face, and you hit him...YOU are 100% responsible for the assault, and will have to pay his damages. YOU are responsible for your actions. Only you can decide not to assault someone. No one else has control over your actions.

Click to expand...

Fortunately, no one in Mainstream Media would blame a female victim since at least 1990s.

Unfortunately male victims of domestic violence are blamed by the Mainstream Media. Did we forget that in 2003 David Harris was blamed for being murdered by his wife Clara Harris. Infidelity does not justify a crime.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Howler63 said:

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

Click to expand...

Why doesn't your thread title, poll question and thread match. Going by thread title and poll question. "Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drunk?" no of course not, the answer is always no and suggestion other wise is nuts. As for personal safety we all play a role in that buy that has nothign to do with responsibility of rape.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Howler63 said:

You DO have a 'right' to make mistakes. As long as you're willing to be culpable for the ramifications of that mistake. Again, we're not excusing the criminal. He's the CRIMINAL. But putting yourself in that position through your own stupidity....makes you at least partially responsible. Especially if the crime might not have happened had you taken the proper precautions.

Again, I'm not saying men and women can't have a good time. Just be alert. Be aware. Be moderate. Or be potential prey.

Click to expand...

Being easy prey for a criminal doesn't make you at fault.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

SCitizen said:

Fortunately, no one in Mainstream Media would blame a female victim since at least 1990s.

Unfortunately male victims of domestic violence are blamed by the Mainstream Media. Did we forget that in 2003 David Harris was blamed for being murdered by his wife Clara Harris. Infidelity does not justify a crime.

Click to expand...

She was found guilty and sentenced to 20 years and a fine (a fine?). That's because there were extenuating circumstances.

But for the most part, violence is almost exclusively male on female, and not the reverse. (Of course there's male-on-male.) Men commit more violent crimes.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

JumpinJack said:

But for the most part, violence is almost exclusively male on female, and not the reverse. (Of course there's male-on-male.) Men commit more violent crimes.

Click to expand...

70% of nonreciprocal relationship violence is female on male.

About 77% of homicides involve male victims, but most offenders are male.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Howler63 said:

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't go as far as saying its partially their fault but I do think its honest to say in the dangerous world in which we live, all of us need to conduct ourselves in a manner that affords the greatest level of personal safety and when we do not, it makes us more vulnerable to exploitation. Its a tightrope walk to try to vocalize but is it ever the fault of the rape victim? No its never her fault. Are there cases where a victim would not have been raped if she had made her safety a priority, although she didn't "ask for it" or deserved it? Yes. That said, are there cases where a rape victim took every reasonable safeguard and was still raped? Yes.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

We're about done. Those who can't separate fault and responsibility have made their position clear. A white man walks up to a group of young blacks and says, "Would you n@@@@ers get off the sidewalk?" has absolutely no responsibility for the subsequent asswhomping. And the guy who beats his wife every Saturday night when he gets drunk has no responsibility for her shooting him in the head while he sleeps on Friday night. Nope, no responsibility whatsoever. And the guy who pulls out money on the subway and says, "I have $20,000 and you don't," has no responsibility for the four guys who get off she subway each $5,000 richer. No responsibility there. And the girl who gets drunk at the fraternity party, dances naked on the table, and passes out on the couch? No responsibility for anything that happens. None. It's exactly the same as if she were attacked by an intruder in her bed at home. Same thing.

That isn't going to change for them.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Patrickt said:

1) A white man walks up to a group of young blacks and says, "Would you n@@@@ers get off the sidewalk?" has absolutely no responsibility for the subsequent asswhomping.

2) And the guy who beats his wife every Saturday night when he gets drunk has no responsibility for her shooting him in the head while he sleeps on Friday night. Nope, no responsibility whatsoever.

3) And the guy who pulls out money on the subway and says, "I have $20,000 and you don't," has no responsibility for the four guys who get off she subway each $5,000 richer. No responsibility there.

Click to expand...

1) The white man may deserve to be in a UK prison, but beating him is not self -- defense. Clear crime.

2) The courts will acquit the wife. Once again only 30% of nonreciprocal domestic violence is male on female -- 70% is female on male.

3) Clear robbery. I left $7 in quarters in a library copy room and found them an hour later. That was 1990s.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

SCitizen said:

1) The white man may deserve to be in a UK prison, but beating him is not self -- defense. Clear crime.

2) The courts will acquit the wife. Once again only 30% of nonreciprocal domestic violence is male on female -- 70% is female on male.

3) Clear robbery. I left $7 in quarters in a library copy room and found them an hour later. That was 1990s.

Click to expand...

Thank you for making the point.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Responsible for being sexually assaulted? No.

Responsible for yourself? Yes.

Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

I suspect no one actually bothered to read about the subject of victim precipitated crime. So, here's a quote from one of the papers:
"Besides these theoretical concepts, the law of homicide has long recognized provocation
by the victim as a possible reason for mitigation of the offense from murder to manslaughter, or from criminal to excusable homicide. In order that such reduction
occur, there are four prerequisites.
(1) There must have been adequate provocation.
(2) The killing must have been in the heat of passion.
(3) The killing must have followed the provocation before there had been a reasonable
opportunity for the passion to cool.
(4) A causal connection must exist between provocation, the heat of passion, and
the homicidal act. Such, for example, are: adultery, seduction of the offender's juvenile
daughter, rape of the offender's wife or close relative, etc.
Finally (4), a causal connection must exist between provocation, the heat of passion,
and the homicidal act. Perkins claims that "the adequate provocation must
have engendered the heat of passion, and the heat of passion must have been the
cause of the act which resulted in death."
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4565&context=jclc

Now, please notice, that nothing said the provocation made the killer innocent. It's about mitigation. A man walks in and sees a neighbor sexually molesting his 5-year old and kills him. I realize that some see the "victim" as having no responsibility. Others might disagree with that.

"Definition
Victim precipitation is a criminology theory that analyzes how a victim's interaction with an offender may contribute to the crime being committed. The theory is most commonly associated with crimes like homicide, rape, assault, and robbery.
The phrase 'victim precipitation' was first introduced by 20th century criminologist Marvin Wolfgang, in his article entitled Victim Precipitated Criminal Homicide. In this theory, Wolfgang describes the victim as the first in the homicide drama to use physical force against his subsequent slayer."
Victim Precipitation: Definition & Theory - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com

Wolfgang limited it to the "victim" being the first to use force in the encounter but in the example I gave above the "victim" used no force against the killer.

My definition would include other precipitating events. For example. A student at our university was studying for an exam. His roommate in a shared apartment was playing music really loud. He asked the roommate to turn it down and the roommate laughed. They argued and the roommate turned the music up. The student studying got a piston from the dresser and killed the roommate. When the police arrived he was crying and said, "Make him get up. I don't want him dead."

Tragedy, clearly. But, did the "victim" play a role in events reaching the deadly end? I think so. And it isn't a matter of fault.