When Will Sanders Concede?

Gaztopian said:

First of all, I'm not a democrat; I'm a mere spectator with no vested interest in any group or outcome. Second, in an earlier post, I stated a deadly deficiency blurring the vision of Bernie's movement: the overestimation of the country's liberalism and underestimation of its conservatism, a deficiency that your post brought in full display. Hubris plays a part in Hillary's refusal to negotiate with the progressive base for its endorsement, but its also driven by a more realistic understanding of the American polity that professes that shifting to the left won't deliver the goods in November, specially in the current political climate and the uniqueness of the GOP's nominee.

Greed and hubris will cost you dearly. Again, I don't object to the idea of negotiating the democratic party for your support, but you must realize your true value and negotiate accordingly. You must also realize what you stand to lose and conduct yourself accordingly. Right now, the self-righteousness of Bernie or Bush feels good and it may seem to promise much. If you end up losing everything in November, you'll look back and curse those that fed you that twaddle.

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What's the basis of your perception?

If you've been paying attention to the polling, you would understand that most of Bernie's platform is actually quite popular per all the data that's available on the subject (example: Do Americans Agree With Bernie Sanders? (INFOGRAPHIC) ), and he himself has consistently polled significantly better than both Hillary and Trump both in terms of favourability ratings and theoretical votes with respect to the general populace. Hell, even the negative stigma traditionally associated with 'socialism' has declined substantially. In light of this, for anyone who was going off the data as it stands and not some nebulous 'gut' feeling or opinion, Sander's biggest obstacle to the White House is and has always been the DNC, and Hillary as an extension of it. That having been said, realism and concerns for the general clearly do not motivate Hillary's stubborn and counterproductive refusal to compromise on anything with regards to policy.

Second, I don't care what your political position is; the fact is that most of Bernie's supporters want representation, and we will do whatever is necessary to get it in the platform. Since Obama's meeting with Sanders, I have hope that the former will act to broker a deal in this regard between him and Hillary going into the general.

Surrealistik said:

What's the basis of your perception?

If you've been paying attention to the polling, you would understand that most of Bernie's platform is actually quite popular per all the data that's available on the subject (example: Do Americans Agree With Bernie Sanders? (INFOGRAPHIC) ), and he himself has consistently polled significantly better than both Hillary and Trump both in terms of favourability ratings and theoretical votes with respect to the general populace. Hell, even the negative stigma traditionally associated with 'socialism' has declined substantially. In light of this, for anyone who was going off the data as it stands and not some nebulous 'gut' feeling or opinion, Sander's biggest obstacle to the White House is and has always been the DNC, and Hillary as an extension of it. That having been said, realism and concerns for the general clearly do not motivate Hillary's stubborn and counterproductive refusal to compromise on anything with regards to policy.

Second, I don't care what your political position is; the fact is that most of Bernie's supporters want representation, and we will do whatever is necessary to get it in the platform. Since Obama's meeting with Sanders, I have hope that the former will act to broker a deal in this regard between him and Hillary going into the general.

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You see, you keep touting Bernie's popularity, yet you fail to realize that he lost the primaries. The DNC tampered with the primaries in favor of Clinton, but that doesn't account for the substantial lead she has over him. If we were to exclude the effects of that tampering and put the two candidates in juxtaposition to each other, we can confidently expect them to be equally popular, something that contradicts the progressive movement's perception of reality, where Bernie is an omnipotent and omnipresent candidate, the secular Jesus.

That aside, I don't deny the numbers when it comes to Clinton's favorability, and I believe she's a damaged candidate. That doesn't mean I'm automatically inclined to believe in Bernie's ability to win the elections. Polls matter, but they're not everything. In a politically volatile country that is a leviathan in world's affairs, much else is at play. Bernie can never stand up to the GOP and the conservative movement. This is more the case considering who he'd run against, Trump. I wish Bernie would get the nomination somehow; there's nothing that can please me more than watching you get the political lesson of a lifetime.

Gaztopian said:

You see, you keep touting Bernie's popularity, yet you fail to realize that he lost the primaries. The DNC tampered with the primaries in favor of Clinton, but that doesn't account for the substantial lead she has over him. If we were to exclude the effects of that tampering and put the two candidates in juxtaposition to each other, we can confidently expect them to be equally popular, something that contradicts the progressive movement's perception of reality, where Bernie is an omnipotent and omnipresent candidate, the secular Jesus.

That aside, I don't deny the numbers when it comes to Clinton's favorability, and I believe she's a damaged candidate. That doesn't mean I'm automatically inclined to believe in Bernie's ability to win the elections. Polls matter, but they're not everything. In a politically volatile country that is a leviathan in world's affairs, much else is at play. Bernie can never stand up to the GOP and the conservative movement. This is more the case considering who he'd run against, Trump. I wish Bernie would get the nomination somehow; there's nothing that can please me more than watching you get the political lesson of a lifetime.

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Bernie lost the democratic primaries yes, but what's your point? He polls significantly better with the general electorate than he does with the DNC and enjoys better favourability ratings and popularity there; popularity with one is not popularity with the other. Further, as I explicitly said, the DNC and Hillary are more an obstacle to him being in the White House than any GOP opposition, and all the data thus far bears this out. The progressive movement does not herald Bernie as some omnipotent figure; that is patently ridiculous and a strawmanning of the movement, and I certainly do not. What I do see, per all the information that is available to me, is a candidate that is significantly more competitive than both Trump and Hillary.

Further, with respect to your assertion that he would be unable to stand against the GOP, this is the case according to what? Solely your unsubstantiated opinion? Because there's no data or evidence that actually supports you.

Surrealistik said:

Bernie lost the democratic primaries yes, but what's your point? He polls significantly better with the general electorate than he does with the DNC and enjoys better favourability ratings and popularity there; popularity with one is not popularity with the other. Further, as I explicitly said, the DNC and Hillary are more an obstacle to him being in the White House than any GOP opposition, and all the data thus far bears this out. The progressive movement does not herald Bernie as some omnipotent figure; that is patently ridiculous and a strawmanning of the movement, and I certainly do not. What I do see, per all the information that is available to me, is a candidate that is significantly more competitive than both Trump and Hillary.

Further, with respect to your assertion that he would be unable to stand against the GOP, this is the case according to what? Solely your unsubstantiated opinion? Because there's no data or evidence that actually supports you.

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My point is if he's as popular as you claim he is, why hasn't he won the party's nomination? Also, it's ridiculous to claim that Bernie is more popular among other bases than he is among the democratic base. Even if he at some point polled positively among independents, I can assure you once the mud slinging culminates leading to the general elections, so many independents will have shifted to Trump, as Bernie will have no answer to his demagoguery.

As for my unsubstantiated opinion, I prefer to have a cerebral discussion rather than a dogmatic one. We can all appeal to polls that support our worldviews; there's little reward in that. Ironically enough, early in the primaries, the polls were heavily against Bernie and his first cheerleaders were all pontificating about momentum and what have you. Even if we were to appeal to polls, they show a 4-5% lead of Bernie over Trump compared to Clinton, and this is within the margin of statistical error. On the other hand, the polls show a 12% lead of Clinton over Bernie within the democratic base, a far more substantial lead. I know as a progressive and as a Bernie supporter you feel entitled to an all-encompassing high-ground; unfortunately you don't have something to show for it, and I'm left with nothing but disappointment that you tried to take the discussion in that threadbare direction.

Gaztopian said:

My point is if he's as popular as you claim he is, why hasn't he won the party's nomination? Also, it's ridiculous to claim that Bernie is more popular among other bases than he is among the democratic base. Even if he at some point polled positively among independents, I can assure you once the mud slinging culminates leading to the general elections, so many independents will have shifted to Trump, as Bernie will have no answer to his demagoguery.

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You evidently and greatly underestimate the weight of party loyalty, Clinton's powerful starting position among Democrats, and the Clinton name/legacy in Democrat circles, nevermind all the DNC and media have done to skew the primaries and stifle expansion/acceleration of Bernie's momentum and recognition, so no, between that and the fact that he has _consistently_ outperformed Clinton and Trump among the general population for months in every measure of popularity, it's not ridiculous to claim that he's more popular among non-exclusively Democrat (i.e. general) bases, which has been repeatedly demonstrated. Further, Trump appears more likely to self-destruct than successfully mudsling against Bernie (particularly since there's a dearth of attack options vis a vis Clinton); in fact, Trump is so self-immolating that it opens the possibility of emboldening the Hillary camp to abandon negotiations with Sanders supporters.

As for my unsubstantiated opinion, I prefer to have a cerebral discussion rather than a dogmatic one. We can all appeal to polls that support our worldviews; there's little reward in that. Ironically enough, early in the primaries, the polls were heavily against Bernie and his first cheerleaders were all pontificating about momentum and what have you. Even if we were to appeal to polls, they show a 4-5% lead of Bernie over Trump compared to Clinton, and this is within the margin of statistical error. On the other hand, the polls show a 12% lead of Clinton over Bernie within the democratic base, a far more substantial lead. I know as a progressive and as a Bernie supporter you feel entitled to an all-encompassing high-ground; unfortunately you don't have something to show for it, and I'm left with nothing but disappointment that you tried to take the discussion in that threadbare direction.

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Your idea of a 'cerebral discussion' looks an awful lot like throwing around essentially unsubstantiated opinions and vitriolic ad hominem. It's not about merely appealing to polls, it's about virtually all of the data being set against what is effectively an utterly unsupported claim that Bernie would be destroyed by the GOP in a general election.

So far as the latest poll aggregates go:

Bernie vs. Trump:
2016 General Election: Trump vs. Sanders - Polls - HuffPost Pollster
RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 - General Election: Trump vs. Sanders

Hillary vs. Trump:
2016 General Election: Trump vs. Clinton - Polls - HuffPost Pollster
RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 - General Election: Trump vs. Clinton

Also, the comparative performance of Bernie vs Hillary within the Democratic Party vs the spread between him and Clinton vs Trump is truly a threadbare, grasping direction so far as an argument against him is concerned for reasons mentioned earlier in this post.

Surrealistik said:

You evidently and greatly underestimate the weight of party loyalty, Clinton's powerful starting position among Democrats, and the Clinton name/legacy in Democrat circles, nevermind all the DNC and media have done to skew the primaries and stifle expansion/acceleration of Bernie's momentum and recognition, so no, between that and the fact that he has _consistently_ outperformed Clinton and Trump among the general population for months in every measure of popularity, it's not ridiculous to claim that he's more popular among non-Democratic basis, which has been repeatedly demonstrated. Further, Trump appears more likely to self-destruct than successfully mudsling against Bernie (particularly since there's a dearth of attack options vis a vis Clinton); in fact, Trump is so self-immolating that it opens the possibility of emboldening the Hillary camp to abandon negotiations with Sanders supporters.

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You've been telling us that Trump will self-destruct for months now, yet the only thing that happened is his continued aggrandizement. For someone who pays such ardent fealty to evidence, you seem oblivious to that simple reality.

Though I understand the appeal of that line of thinking to you. If you are to comfortably abandon reason and stand by the Bernie or Bust twaddle, you need to downplay the threat of a Trump presidency; otherwise, others will call you perverse and obstinate and you yourself would hardly sleep at night, as you'd be a party to your own destruction.

Your idea of a 'cerebral discussion' looks an awful lot like throwing around essentially unsubstantiated opinions and vitriolic ad hominem. It's not about merely appealing to polls, it's about virtually all of the data being set against what is effectively an utterly unsupported claim that Bernie would be destroyed by the GOP in a general election.

So far as the latest poll aggregates go:

Bernie vs. Trump:
2016 General Election: Trump vs. Sanders - Polls - HuffPost Pollster
RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 - General Election: Trump vs. Sanders

Hillary vs. Trump:
2016 General Election: Trump vs. Clinton - Polls - HuffPost Pollster
RealClearPolitics - Election 2016 - General Election: Trump vs. Clinton

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I'm sorry you couldn't take my rhetoric, and I'm sorry you have no taste for my idea of a cerebral discussion; there isn't much to do about that. Furthermore, I didn't deny the polls; so I'm not sure why you're citing them. Or is this now Bernie's cheerleaders' knee-jerk reaction? "Look at the prophecies man; they herald the Coming of the secular messiah".

I really hope Bernie will get the nomination; there's no telling how much I'll be gloating in November.

Hillary Clinton won the primary season...Bernie Sanders lost.

Now is the time for Democrats to come together and prevent a Republican from taking the White House.

As an Independent who favors a progressive agenda...I hope the Dems get their ducks in a row on this issue. Yeah, Bernie's supporters should indicate to the Democratic Party that more attention has to be paid to progressive concerns than they are. But Bernie's supporters have to finally realize that the Democratic Party already IS PAYING A LOT MORE ATTENTION TO THOSE CONCERNS THAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY EVER WILL.

Some Bernie Sanders' supporters, like Surrealistik for instance...apparently are more interested in lamenting the loss than in finally moving forward.

I hope a majority of those supporters are more realistic and more willing to move on than he.

Gaztopian said:

You've been telling us that Trump will self-destruct for months now, yet the only thing that happened is his continued aggrandizement. For someone who pays such ardent fealty to evidence, you seem oblivious to that simple reality.

Though I understand the appeal of that line of thinking to you. If you are to comfortably abandon reason and stand by the Bernie or Bust twaddle, you need to downplay the threat of a Trump presidency; otherwise, others will call you perverse and obstinate and you yourself would hardly sleep at night, as you'd be a party to your own destruction.

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Uh, no I haven't.

I have not denounced Trump's chances whatsoever until recently (the Republican party loves his sort; his behaviour was an asset in their primaries, not a liability), nor has this ever been really a unifying opinion of those rallied behind Bernie in the event you're referring to me as part of a group.

That having been said, I do think that the general population is probably much less forgiving than the Republican party of his behaviour, that he certainly has the capacity for self-destruction outside of that sphere of the electorate, and that he has made some errors in that regard recently. I further believe that because this is true, it's all the more reason, beyond consistent aggregated polling data, that Bernie would have beat Trump decisively in the event of being nominee rather than the inverse.

I'm sorry you couldn't take my rhetoric, and I'm sorry you have no taste for my idea of a cerebral discussion; there isn't much to do about that. Furthermore, I didn't deny the polls; so I'm not sure why you're citing them. Or is this now Bernie's cheerleaders' knee-jerk reaction? "Look at the prophecies man; they herald the Coming of the secular messiah".

I really hope Bernie will get the nomination; there's no telling how much I'll be gloating in November.

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It's not so much that I 'couldn't take your rhetoric' as that I'm pointing out insults very simply are not cerebral discussion. I further linked aggregate polls to highlight that you basically have no evidence in support of your claims with regards to Bernie failing in a presumptive match up with Trump, and that your position is derived from nothing but an arbitrary viewpoint: one that isn't couched in 'objectivity' despite your repeated claims, or even logic. That's not citation of prophesy, that's a recitation of facts.