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Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a...

Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a...

  • Total voters
    54
Zyphlin said:
About what?

The assertions I made:

1. It's largely a manufactured wedge issue at the moment
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Agree.

2. That both sides are using it as a manufactured wedge issue, not JUST conservatives.
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Agree.

3. That the Charlotte law occurred before the North Carolina law
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Agree.

Which of those are wrong?
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None of THOSE.

I didn't say or imply that the Charlotte law was unique or the first of it's kind. I simply suggested that both sides have been attempting in recent months to push this as a wedge issue. That the NC law didn't come into being from nothing and in reaction to nothing, but rather in reaction to the other side taking action to codify something that was already essentially occurring regularly. Codification that was ballyhooed enough to garner attention in news sources beyond simply local Charlotte ones. [/quote]

The implication that you made was that since the Charlotte law predated the NC state law, it was the Charlotte law that started the problem. That's not true, since the Charlotte law was nothing unusual. Laws like that have been passed in various locales for several years. It was only when HB2 was passed did this firestorm erupt.

Laws allowing for gay marriage were the "unusual ones" at the time they were being past, yet many would claim that wasn't an example of them "creating" a wedge issue. Simply because one law is unusual or one isn't is not the singular definition of wedge issue or creating a wedge issue. The reaction to, promotion of, and messaging towards a "usual" law can create an "unusual" situation and can be an indication that the focus on such a "usual" thing may be "unusual" in nature.
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It may not be the singular definition of what is or isn't a wedge issue, but in some cases it can be. It also depends on how the issue progresses. With SSM, there was quite a bit of opposition right from the beginning. With these anti-discrimination laws, the opposition was far less significant from the outset.

From an anecdotal stand point; I can't recall any other times of seeing people on my social media feeds praising locations for creating such laws. Yet when the Charlotte ordinance was passed, I did see such things celebrating the progressive treatment of transgendered people.
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I hadn't even heard of the Charlotte law other than a very brief mention (similar to other laws) until HB2 was passed. It was only then that it became an issue from what I saw.

Furthermore, the PRIMARY thrust of my post was not regarding who "started it". Note that even though I indicated the Charlotte law came before the North Carolina law, never even once did I claim either side "started it" or deserved greater blame. Rather, my ENTIRE post was aimed at simply claiming that both sides are utilizing it as a wedge issue and that blaming any single side is wrong.
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No, your implication was pretty clear in your refutation. Here's where you do it: "but it's apparently not a "manufactured wedge issue" for Charlotte to decide to take legal action anyway to codify it in a broad fashion into the law." The Charlotte law was a response to discrimination situations. But it wasn't unusual. HB2 WAS. No law had been passed as of yet to strike down a law like the Charlotte law. Your comment that I quoted points at the Charlotte law as the problem.

"But it's manufacturing can be attributed to both sides, as can the dumping of lighter fluid onto this mess that both sides have been engaging in as well."
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Don't agree. HB2 created the manufacturing. Then both sides created the circus.

Whether the Charlotte law was "unusual" or not, the reaction to it within social media and in parts of the media helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. Whether North Carolina's law was a first of it's kind of not, subsequent action since from both sides have helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. And yes, because it was the first of it's kind, it too helped create the feeling of a wedge issue. My post was not aimed at laying blame for "starting it", but simply highlighting the ridiculousness of single sided condemnation in this regard. As you yourself have pointed out, both sides have been adding fuel to the fire and have drove this as a wedge issue.
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Of course it's a wedge issue and a stupid one at that. But the Charlotte law was wasn't really relevant. No where else had the a response like HB2 occurred. Why did that happen? Was it locale? Was it timing? Laws like the Charlotte law had been passed in many places over the past 5 or so years. We didn't see something like HB2 created. How did the wedge issue get formed? From what I see, it was a direct response to SSM passing. Now we have the new wedge issue: transsexuality.
 
Caine said:
You are aware that the law passed in Charlotte cannot stop people from verbally harassing a transgender person right? And that this law wasn't going to change how people felt about transgender people? And that the law only help bring those who otherwise didn't give a rats ass about transgender folks out of the woodwork to voice their opposition and make their internet social media threats against a fictitious transgender person entering the bathroom after their child in a hypothetical scenario.

As I said, transgender people were better off BEFORE their "plight" of getting to say..

images
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Caine, NO law can stop anyone from doing anything. All laws really do is give consequences to people for DOING whatever it is that they did. Most of what you said really isn't relevant to what I said. Of course it's not going to change how people feel about transsexuals. What the law did was address a segment of the population that has been discriminated against and harassed. I see nothing wrong with doing that. People's reactions to it are people's reactions to it. If people want to act like ignorant bigots and come out of the woodwork and blame transsexuals for lots of stuff that transsexuals have nothing to do with, that's on them. We saw that with black civil rights, women's civil rights, gay civil rights, etc... I don't expect it to be any different. Telling a minority that "hey, you've got it OK... shut up and don't make waves" keeps that minority potentially targeted for discrimination with little or no recourse. One thing these laws do is force law enforcement and the judiciary to take seriously transsexual harassment, something that research shows is often not taken seriously. Regardless, I am very well aware that this issue is negatively affecting transsexuals, currently, but that's a creation of HB2 and the idiotic response by BOTH sides to HB2. The Charlotte law, like other laws like it, didn't create this.
 
Zyphlin said:
Here's the thing Cap. You're making a personal value judgement here to determine what you think is "unusual" or not.

The fact there HAVE been other challenges to these laws suggests that:

1. These laws that were passed by other localities HAVE been controversial before this one.
2. There have been attempts to fight back against such laws before.
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No, I'm looking at statistics. I already said that there were other challenges; none passed. HB2, to my knowledge was the first one that has passed, certainly on a state level. That IS unusual and brought on all the attention that we now see. People don't react to same old same old.

That this one is the first to actually pass does make the actual PASSAGE unusual. However, it does not make the opposition to such laws as unusual. And simply finally succeeding at something...be it NC passing it's law, or say the Massachusetts court legalizing gay marriage...doesn't mean it is inherently the "catalyst" for it being made a wedge issue.
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I disagree, although at the very least it brings the wedge issue out into the light of day.

Gay marriage, for instance, was a wedge issue long before Massachusett's court made it legal. Going by your stance, the Massachusetts would've been "unusual" as the first to SUCCEED at being overturned in the courts, and therefore would've been the "catalyst" for the wedge issue being present. But I'd say that would be a rather poor reading of the situation. Similarly here, trying to singularly put HB2 as the "catalyst" for transgender issues being used as a "wedge" issue is incorrect. Note, I'd say that pointing to the Charlotte law as the catalyst would also be incorrect. It's been being used as a wedge issue for some time now.
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And I would disagree. As far as bringing a wedge issue into the light and making it more national, the Massachusetts law did just that when it came to SSM.

Even the way the reaction to HB2 has been done is an indication that the notion of it being a "wedge" issue is a little off. As egregious as some may see the bathroom issues as it relates to HB2, I've had a hard time understanding through this whole thing how THAT is the bigger issue related to that law compared to the fact that it has SEVERELY damaged the ability for individuals to take any form of legal discrimination action to the court system. That is a significant change that law made and a significant hampering of the standard procedures as it relates to civil rights recourse as we've come to know it in this country.
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I agree with you 100%. I believe the problem is that it has created a TON of misunderstanding around transsexuality from both sides and the stupidity and ignorance communicated around this has taken the spotlight, INSTEAD of the fact that if one is discriminated, due to this law, that individual's recourse is severely hampered. SCOTUS has to strike this down based on that, NOT the issue of transsexuality.

Yet the focus...from both sides...has primarily been about BATHROOMS from the very onset. Because BOTH sides see a situation where there's opportunity for pushing their social agendas in the ongoing culture wars. That's basically the definition of a wedge issue, where the focus is more on the most emotionally charged item of a situation that is most likely to demonize the other side and split support to one side or another, often at the exclusion of more relevant or significant issues that may have a less impactful segregation of the voting base.
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The big problem here is that what this has done is bring about a lot of ignorance and verbal attacks (at least) on transsexuals. I know, for me, I've seen a significant impact that HB2 and the general response from people... both sides... have had on transsexuals themselves. What's getting lost is that.

I agree with you in terms of Caine's post. Blaming it singularly on the Charlotte law is as ridiculous as blaming it singularly on Conservatives. But I simply think neither of these were the "catalyst" for this current issue; the current issue is simply the latest incarnation of a generalized culture battle as it relates to these issues that's been going on for some time.
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It's not a singular issue and I agree that the "wedge" has been around for a while. However, the catalyst for the current firestorm was HB2 and the response from both sides to it. It really has nothing to do with transsexuals, though; it's more a response to the gay rights and religious rights issue.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
It's not a singular issue and I agree that the "wedge" has been around for a while. However, the catalyst for the current firestorm was HB2 and the response from both sides to it. It really has nothing to do with transsexuals, though; it's more a response to the gay rights and religious rights issue.
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I disagree with portions of your earlier part of the post, but I think there it's simply a matter of differing opinions and the difference is relatively slim on either side, so not likely worth going back and forth over.

Here is where I would concede an agreement. HB2 was the catalyst for the current firestorm (which is different than a catalyst for the transgender/gender identity/gender expression wedge issue overall).

Where we may break (you can correct me if I'm wrong), is that despite it being passed by Republicans, I'd still lay the blame for the current firestorm and it's catalyst at the feet of both sides. This goes back to my earlier notion about the FOCUS regarding HB2. It's abundantly clear that many on the liberal side willfully and gleefully took the opportunity to grab onto HB2 and immediately use it as a means of inflaming a wedge issue that was already present. As evidenced by so much focus being primarily aimed at a pretty easily arguably less troubling part of HB2.

HB2 was the catalyst that caused this current bruhahah to start up, but it started up because both sides immediately glommed onto HB2 as a means of pushing this wedge issue.

This may come back to my problem with "wedge issues" in general and this great desire to paint only one side at really trying to capitalize or push it. Both sides absolutely do it, they just both try to claim their own side doesn't because their side is being "reasonable" or just doing "the usual" and it's the OTHER side that's making it a wedge. While in reality, with most wedge issues, both sides are equally attempting to drive that wedge in there because the very nature of a wedge issue is one in which it will typically push a large portion of the population staunchly to "your side" if you pluck the right emotional strings. That's something BOTH sides of the aisle benefit from and I think they absolutely take advantage of.

So I guess in a tl;dr sort of way.

The creation of the broader "wedge" issue came long before Charlotte or HB2; the current FLAREUP of said wedge issue can be attributed to HB2, but both sides are responsible for various actions relating to that which caused the flare up to reach the point that it has.
 
Zyphlin said:
I disagree with portions of your earlier part of the post, but I think there it's simply a matter of differing opinions and the difference is relatively slim on either side, so not likely worth going back and forth over.

Here is where I would concede an agreement. HB2 was the catalyst for the current firestorm (which is different than a catalyst for the transgender/gender identity/gender expression wedge issue overall).

Where we may break (you can correct me if I'm wrong), is that despite it being passed by Republicans, I'd still lay the blame for the current firestorm and it's catalyst at the feet of both sides. This goes back to my earlier notion about the FOCUS regarding HB2. It's abundantly clear that many on the liberal side willfully and gleefully took the opportunity to grab onto HB2 and immediately use it as a means of inflaming a wedge issue that was already present. As evidenced by so much focus being primarily aimed at a pretty easily arguably less troubling part of HB2.

HB2 was the catalyst that caused this current bruhahah to start up, but it started up because both sides immediately glommed onto HB2 as a means of pushing this wedge issue.

This may come back to my problem with "wedge issues" in general and this great desire to paint only one side at really trying to capitalize or push it. Both sides absolutely do it, they just both try to claim their own side doesn't because their side is being "reasonable" or just doing "the usual" and it's the OTHER side that's making it a wedge. While in reality, with most wedge issues, both sides are equally attempting to drive that wedge in there because the very nature of a wedge issue is one in which it will typically push a large portion of the population staunchly to "your side" if you pluck the right emotional strings. That's something BOTH sides of the aisle benefit from and I think they absolutely take advantage of.

So I guess in a tl;dr sort of way.

The creation of the broader "wedge" issue came long before Charlotte or HB2; the current FLAREUP of said wedge issue can be attributed to HB2, but both sides are responsible for various actions relating to that which caused the flare up to reach the point that it has.
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Overall, I agree with everything you said above. In fact, in my last post, I clarified and said that HB2 created the CURRENT firestorm, just as you just said. Conservatives jumped on this issue as a response to losing SSM and as a way to attack something left on the socially liberal side of things and insult a different segment of society (transsexuals). Liberals jumped at an opportunity to shove some prior losses in the face of conservatives and go completely around the bend, such as Obama's idiotic edict, something that I believe will hurt the issue and transsexuals far more than help them.

This is a ridiculous circus, with moronic liberals and moronic conservatives as the ringmasters, both sides presenting tons of stupidity and ignorance, while reasonable folks watch and stare in disbelief, and transsexuals are the abused circus animals who really have nothing to do with this.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Overall, I agree with everything you said above. In fact, in my last post, I clarified and said that HB2 created the CURRENT firestorm, just as you just said. Conservatives jumped on this issue as a response to losing SSM and as a way to attack something left on the socially liberal side of things and insult a different segment of society (transsexuals). Liberals jumped at an opportunity to shove some prior losses in the face of conservatives and go completely around the bend, such as Obama's idiotic edict, something that I believe will hurt the issue and transsexuals far more than help them.

This is a ridiculous circus, with moronic liberals and moronic conservatives as the ringmasters, both sides presenting tons of stupidity and ignorance, while reasonable folks watch and stare in disbelief, and transsexuals are the abused circus animals who really have nothing to do with this.
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Most of the replies are on the right track. It's to single out and ridicule a small minority of human beings who happen to be different.

Déjà vu.

Another issue will eventually take it's place.
 
Caine said:
And what is wrong with the current system???????
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I don't have an issue with the current system, so long as it is suggested, not enforced. It's a restroom and would involve a lot of harassment of innocent people to enforce absolute sex standards, as well as inconvenience parents and caregivers who are of the opposite sex.
 
Caine said:
So yeah, the actual transgender person was better off before all this nonsense.
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No, they weren't better off, they were simply not known about and the problems they faced were ignored by many more people than now. If they happened to pass without any question, then they were lucky. If they had any part of them that could give them away, or could simply get them questioned, then they lived in fear of being harassed in either restroom, since most try to live their lives as that gender. And then there are those who simply don't look like others might think should be the proper look for their gender and could be more like that of the opposite gender, so they get harassed too.
 
roguenuke said:
I don't have an issue with the current system, so long as it is suggested, not enforced. It's a restroom and would involve a lot of harassment of innocent people to enforce absolute sex standards, as well as inconvenience parents and caregivers who are of the opposite sex.
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Nobody is capable of enforcing it. Not Charlotte and their stupid fines, and not our current state system, which has been restored to before Charlotte's nonsense (Because as I have repeated until I was blue in the face HB2 didn't change anything except the public school system, and I think a few state parks, unlike Charlotte trying to force stupid fines on businesses).
 
roguenuke said:
No, they weren't better off, they were simply not known about and the problems they faced were ignored by many more people than now.
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Yep. Now their problems are all over the place, and people who normally didn't give a rip about them are now consciously aware of and looking for their presence.
If they happened to pass without any question, then they were lucky.
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A great majority of the time they DID pass without any question.
If they had any part of them that could give them away, or could simply get them questioned, then they lived in fear of being harassed in either restroom, since most try to live their lives as that gender.
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Now they live in GREATER fear of being harassed in either restroom, as the media firestorm has made their existence a topic of discussion and has brought people who didn't like them out of their silence.
And then there are those who simply don't look like others might think should be the proper look for their gender and could be more like that of the opposite gender, so they get harassed too.
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And none of that harassment is going to change due to forcing laws that most American's aren't ready for upon our elementary and high schools. Its only going to get worse.
 
Objective Voice said:
Wedge issue for sure. Since the GOP lost the moral high ground on heterosexual marriage from the Supreme Court and gays and lesbians can now openly serve in our military and they caught alot of flack over the marriage equality issue, they had to come up with a new moral wrinkle to stir the public's angst.
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Caine said:
You have it ass backwards....
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Towit...

Caine said:
I don't get some of you on here.....

When pro-transgender laws are passed, which started first btw, nobody thinks that is a problem.

But when areas go and pre-emptively pass laws against it, or like in NC, pass a law in response to a city in their state...... then suddenly

ITS ALL THE CONSERVATIVES PITCHING A FIT AND CHOOSING A NEW MORAL WEDGE ISSUE!!!!!

When you fail to realize that this whole thing was started by the people who started forcing this transgender equality on us to begin with.
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The same thing happened in a small town here in Alabama and then our GOP-controlled state legislature took that ball and ran with it. Regardless, I fail to see how I'm seeing this wedge issue tact as "ass backwards" since in either case, it's right-wing conservative politicians who are the ones who bring up these "laws" that in reality weren't a problem until they made it a problem. I mean, transgender people have been using whatever restroom that fits their sexual identity for years and it was never a real problem. There are few (if any) cases of transgender rape or incest committed. If anything, it's straight people who are the sexual predators. And while I get the concern that a man could pretend to get a cross dresser and perpetrate harm unto a little girl (or boy) or even a grown woman, the odds are extremely low of this ever occurring.

Thus, in the aggregate, this is nothing more than a manufacture problem (wedge issue) where none had ever truly existed magnified by faux laws drafted by GOP politicians for no other reason than their attempt to grab the moral high ground.
 
Objective Voice said:
The same thing happened in a small town here in Alabama and then our GOP-controlled state legislature took that ball and ran with it. Regardless, I fail to see how I'm seeing this wedge issue tact as "ass backwards" since in either case, it's right-wing conservative politicians who are the ones who bring up these "laws" that in reality weren't a problem until they made it a problem. I mean, transgender people have been using whatever restroom that fits their sexual identity for years and it was never a real problem. There are few (if any) cases of transgender rape or incest committed. If anything, it's straight people who are the sexual predators. And while I get the concern that a man could pretend to get a cross dresser and perpetrate harm unto a little girl (or boy) or even a grown woman, the odds are extremely low of this ever occurring.
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So if I'm understanding your logic right:

1. "Transgender people have been using whatever restroom that fits their sexual identity for years and it was never a real problem."

2. Despite this, laws have been passed, like in Charlotte, specifically protecting not just transitioning/transitioned transsexuals, but anyone engaging in a different gender identity/gender expression. This is not in any way adding to, fueling, or engaging in making this a wedge issue.

3. Ring-Wing conservative politicians bring up laws in response to those laws stated in #2, and finally succeed in getting one passed, and they are totally the ones singularly creating and manufacturing the wedge issue.

If your assertion I referenced in #1 was the case, why were the laws referenced in #2 necessary to be passed, pushed, and promoted?

And yes, the odds off a cross dresser...either legitimate or illegitimate, a distinction not defined in the Charlotte law...acting in a predatory fashion is low. Then again, so is the percentage of the population that are truly transsexual. However, both are not utterly unheard of .

Back in November, in my neck of the woods, there was actually a case of a man....with a gender expression of a female (dressed in a wig, makeup, and female clothes...that entered into a female bathroom and proceeded to allegedly record a female in the next stall. He had did a similar act, using a mirror, to spy on another woman. And again to a 35 year old and her 5 year old daughter.

Now, with that said, it's legitimate to say that such an individual would still be charged for unlawful filming and peeping REGARDLESS of these transgender laws. Virginia, or the locality this took place, has no such laws regarding transgenderism and the ability to use a bathroom that matches one's "gender expression". So this is not actually a clear argument against such laws. However, what it does show is that such instances do have the potential to take place. In this instance, the woman was "lucky" (using word lightly) to at least have spotted the ACTUAL peeping. Because Virginia has no such law, even if she hadn't spotted the peeping and just spotted the man, she could have at least alerted mall security and have had him removed from the wrongful restroom, taking away his ability that day of doing any further peeping. Had a law been on the books disallowing "discrimination" based on "gender identity", that may not have been the case without clearly catching him in the act.

Again, nothing I'm referencing there is advocating for or against the law; there's a lot of ifs and assumptions involved in terms of trying to claims it proves those laws would or wouldn't be effective as a deterrent/incentive. What it is meant to do, however, is show that it's not some absolutely unheard of notion that an individual may attempt to employ a "gender expression" opposite their own as a means of getting access to the opposite sex in an intimate location.
 
What is comical is the tendency for those on the left to ignore the shot fired across the bow and the focus only on the response. The NC legislature did not up and pass a law out of the blue...it responded to a proposal posed by a convicted pedophile and passed against the public wishes and without a public vote.
 
I never understood the big deal, sometimes I use the girls room when there is a line. Or if the Men's is really nasty (I am looking at you Seattle Bus Station). Does it really matter which bathroom anybody uses? I didn't think there was a law saying you had to use a particular bathroom. And if there was one, it wouldn't stop the perverts anyway. Just give them a forbidden fruit, now i gotta do it, type of feeling. There are unisex bathrooms everywhere and nobody freaks out about those.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
I never understood the big deal, sometimes I use the girls room when there is a line. Or if the Men's is really nasty (I am looking at you Seattle Bus Station). Does it really matter which bathroom anybody uses? I didn't think there was a law saying you had to use a particular bathroom. And if there was one, it wouldn't stop the perverts anyway. Just give them a forbidden fruit, now i gotta do it, type of feeling. There are unisex bathrooms everywhere and nobody freaks out about those.
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Thats because in a unisex bathroom that is clearly posted as such, you know what you are getting into, and that is a choice you have made.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
I never understood the big deal, sometimes I use the girls room when there is a line. Or if the Men's is really nasty (I am looking at you Seattle Bus Station). Does it really matter which bathroom anybody uses? I didn't think there was a law saying you had to use a particular bathroom. And if there was one, it wouldn't stop the perverts anyway. Just give them a forbidden fruit, now i gotta do it, type of feeling. There are unisex bathrooms everywhere and nobody freaks out about those.
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I would have presumed this might fall under "indecent exposure", or something like that.
 
radcen said:
I would have presumed this might fall under "indecent exposure", or something like that.
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Not really, since anyone can be charged with that, no matter their sex/gender, if they purposely expose themselves to others even in a restroom. You can't be charged with indecent exposure if you are behind a stall door, not legitimately.
 
roguenuke said:
Not really, since anyone can be charged with that, no matter their sex/gender, if they purposely expose themselves to others even in a restroom. You can't be charged with indecent exposure if you are behind a stall door, not legitimately.
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That's kind of my point. It doesn't have to be legitimate, but it can be a great "catch-all" charge. I could easily see it used more freely against a man in a women's restroom than any other scenario, in spite of the theory of equality and fairness.
 
radcen said:
That's kind of my point. It doesn't have to be legitimate, but it can be a great "catch-all" charge. I could easily see it used more freely against a man in a women's restroom than any other scenario, in spite of the theory of equality and fairness.
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I can see some people practicing that, but they would still have to show that the man was showing more of himself than any woman in the restroom showed on a normal basis. Otherwise it could easily be shown that it was sex discrimination in application of the law.
 
Caine said:
Thats because in a unisex bathroom that is clearly posted as such, you know what you are getting into, and that is a choice you have made.
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So lets turn all bathrooms into unisex bathrooms. Problem Solved.
 
radcen said:
Is the current brouhaha over TG restroom access a legitimate issues that needed to be addressed, or is it a manufactured wedge issue?

TG = transgender, in case you don't know.
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Its all about a social engineering push to normalize the elimination of distinctions between the genders and normalize homosexuality by challenging privacy using supposed civil rights as a clever ploy. I think most people are less concerned about their privacy in a public restroom because there are stalls with doors that can be closed and locked inside of the facilities. Put up some open area urinals to be used in the presence of little girls in the ladies rooms and I think more people will take issue.

Another issue most people aren't considering is this not only applies to public restroom where you can lock yourself inside of a private stall. It also applied to public dressing/locker rooms where ladies are completely nude, drying off after a shower and getting dressed. Imagine teenage boys and even male high school faculty and staff deciding to self-identify as female and having legal access to view young ladies unclothed after PE or a man being able to legally enter the women's locker room at a fitness center. I'm not saying they would physically harm them, but if legally allowed I would be surprised if some would not "say" they are transgender is order to enjoy the scenery at the expense of ladies' privacy.
 
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