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Should public restrooms still be segregated by gender?

Should public restrooms still be segregated by gender?

  • Total voters
    54
legalimmigrant said:
How would a clerk at the SBA know if you are a trans or if you are lying to get the loan that you would otherwise not get?

Mike Tyson walks in and says, I feel I am a woman. Get I get a loan?

You are the clerk as the SBA. What do you do?
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Strongly suspect that "Mike Tyson" is actually James O'keef and you're being videotaped.
 
tres borrachos said:
Has nothing to do with what I posted.
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"Because the SBA stopped granting loans to men?" Looks familiar?

FYI, the SBA has a form of affirmative action to promote women in business. Hence, a woman applicant has a better chance to get a loan. Hence, to increase his chances of getting one, a perfectly hetero guy will be able to falsely claim he is a woman, if we allow this crap with self-identification. Just like Caitlyn.

Did you finally get it?

If not, ask The Governess. She is a smart lady, so she will be able to help you. I am done being a tutor.
 
legalimmigrant said:
"Because the SBA stopped granting loans to men?" Looks familiar?

FYI, the SBA has a form of affirmative action to promote women in business. Hence, a woman applicant has a better chance to get a loan. Hence, to increase his chances of getting one, a perfectly hetero guy will be able to falsely claim he is a woman, if we allow this crap with self-identification. Just like Caitlyn.

Did you finally get it?

If not, ask The Governess. She is a smart lady, so she will be able to help you. I am done being a tutor.
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Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll say it once again. SBA lenders do not ask for verification that the person is what he/she claims to be. They never did. They never will. The new laws don't change that. 5 years ago if Mike Tyson put on a dress and claimed to be a woman, the lender would not ask him to show his vagina to confirm he's a woman. And if he is claiming to be a "woman owned business", nobody who confirms it is in fact a woman owned business has the authority nor the capacity to confirm what is between the business owner's legs. Never did, never can.

In other words, this could have happened 3 years ago. The new transgender bathroom laws have no impact on this.

Pay attention. The SBA doesn't grant loans to every woman who applies. It also doesn't grant loans to more women than men. It also targets many groups, including minorities. That is no different than what colleges do or employers do. And none of them have ever been able to check under the skirt to confirm the private parts are what the decision maker believes them to be.
 
tres borrachos said:
Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll say it once again. SBA lenders do not ask for verification that the person is what he/she claims to be. They never did. They never will. The new laws don't change that. 5 years ago if Mike Tyson put on a dress and claimed to be a woman, the lender would not ask him to show his vagina to confirm he's a woman. And if he is claiming to be a "woman owned business", nobody who confirms it is in fact a woman owned business has the authority nor the capacity to confirm what is between the business owner's legs. Never did, never can.

In other words, this could have happened 3 years ago. The new transgender bathroom laws have no impact on this.

Pay attention. The SBA doesn't grant loans to every woman who applies. It also doesn't grant loans to more women than men. It also targets many groups, including minorities. That is no different than what colleges do or employers do. And none of them have ever been able to check under the skirt to confirm the private parts are what the decision maker believes them to be.
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A perfect strawman.

Your government does not enforce many things. So what? Your moronic federal government goes apes*** at the mere suggestion of a state requiring voter ID cards. It does not change the fact that only citizens are allowed to vote.

The SBA has an office called: Office of Women's Business Ownership. Did you notice, "Women's"? It is not called: Office of Women's - or Men's Who Think They Are Women - Business Ownership. No, they don't ask to see the applicant's vagina. What a stupid argument. They don't ask for a proof of citizenship when registering to vote, either, but it is still a crime to vote if you are not a citizen.

Your gender is what the government says it is. You want to change it? Fine. Go through the procedure and get a statement from a doctor. Once you have the paper, you can update you state ID, your DL, and your passport, but not your BC. What you say your gender is matters squat.

Some people think they can fly, but the FAA still does not allow them to practice their imaginary skills at the airports.

All that self-identification bs is just that, and a fodder for Bravo, National Enquirer, and forum debates. And Target to show how progressive they are.
 
David_N said:
We need armed guards to protect the little girls. :lol:
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If that was supposed to be a joke, it's a very sick joke only a childless liberal can think is funny..

One in four girls in "America" will be sexually abused before reaching 18.

We do, indeed, need armed guards to protect the little girls.
 
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legalimmigrant said:
If that was supposed to be a joke, it's a very sick joke only a childless liberal can think is funny..

One in four girls in "America" will be sexually abused before reaching 18.

We do, indeed, need armed guards to protect the little girls.
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Yeah, I didn't really get that either. It seems like some in their zeal to be uber PC have kinda lost all grip on common sense.
 
I think a day will come when our society has evolved past segregated bathrooms and locker rooms. Somehow most gay men and lesbians manage to utilize the facilities while keeping their libidos in check so I don't know why us straight folks couldn't do it. But we aren't ready for it quite yet.
 
X Factor said:
I fully support trans people using the restroom of the gender they identify with (and present as) and I oppose these recent reactionary laws trying to prevent that, but I still think it right to divide bathrooms between gender. I don't think it wrong, bigoted, paranoid or hateful for women to be uncomfortable with men in their bathroom.
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Anyone who has cleaned public restrooms can attest that the womens' room smells worse. I don't want to go into a ladies' room.
 
TheGoverness said:
They are talking about transgender people who identify with the gender that they feel like they are. Sure, they are not biologically the gender they choose to identify as, but that's what they feel like they are, and that's what they choose to identify as.
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Well, I feel like Thor and I choose to identify as Thor. I mean sure, I don't have blonde hair or blue eyes nor do I have any sort of hammer I throw at people with Thunder all around it or so ****, but people should still say I'm Thor.
 
Henrin said:
Well, I feel like Thor and I choose to identify as Thor. I mean sure, I don't have blonde hair or blue eyes nor do I have any sort of hammer I throw at people with Thunder all around it or so ****, but people should still say I'm Thor.
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I'll allow it if you can lick your eyebrows.
 
Yes for the most part, have men and women restrooms. It's worked out just fine all these years. If I see some dude in the women's bathroom, I figure they just have to use the bathroom just like me. As with any stranger, of course I am going to keep my guard up but it's not that big of a deal.
 
Henrin said:
Well, I feel like Thor and I choose to identify as Thor. I mean sure, I don't have blonde hair or blue eyes nor do I have any sort of hammer I throw at people with Thunder all around it or so ****, but people should still say I'm Thor.
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Ugh. Not even close to being the same thing.
 
TheGoverness said:
Ugh. Not even close to being the same thing.
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So I can't claim something about myself obviously wrong and be respected for it? Well, that's bull****.
 
Henrin said:
So I can't claim something about myself obviously wrong and be respected for it? Well, that's bull****.
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Do you suffer from gender dysphoria? I don't think so. However transgender people do. That's the whole reason why they choose to identify as the respective gender that they feel like they are, along with going through procedures like hormone treatments and possibly a sex change.
 
TheGoverness said:
Do you suffer from gender dysphoria? I don't think so. However transgender people do. That's the whole reason why they choose to identify as the respective gender that they feel like they are, along with going through procedures like hormone treatments and possibly a sex change.
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There is no such thing as a sex change, so just call it by the surgeries name. Anyway, their condition doesn't make them the opposite gender nor does anything they do to themselves change who they are. I'm not Thor and MTF's are not female.
 
Henrin said:
There is no such thing as a sex change, so just call it by the surgeries name. Anyway, their condition doesn't make them the opposite gender nor does anything they do to themselves change who they are. I'm not Thor and MTF's are not female.
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There is such thing as a sex change, Henrin. I don't really care if you choose to acknowledge that or not.

And of course it doesn't make them the opposite gender. They are biologically whatever gender they were born as. But since they suffer from gender dysphoria, identifying as the other gender and going through procedures like hormone therapy and getting a sex change is the preferred treatment for that condition. Otherwise they'll suffer from depression, anxiety, loneliness, poor self-esteem, social isolation from their peers, and in a lot of cases, have suicidal tendencies.
 
TheGoverness said:
There is such thing as a sex change, Henrin. I don't really care if you choose to acknowledge that or not.
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There is no way to change your sex, so there is no such thing as a sex change. The surgery has a proper name, so use it.

And of course it doesn't make them the opposite gender. They are biologically whatever gender they were born as. But since they suffer from gender dysphoria, identifying as the other gender and going through procedures like hormone therapy and getting a sex change is the preferred treatment for that condition. Otherwise they'll suffer from depression, anxiety, loneliness, poor self-esteem, social isolation from their peers, and in a lot of cases, have suicidal tendencies.
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The treatment damages their body considerably, makes their brain even more feminine/masculine, shortens their life span, and increases their risk of cancer. There is nothing desirable about the treatment nor is it ethically sound for doctors to take part in it as it violates their oath. It increases improves their mood and lowers depression only because the treatment is giving the brain(that is now even worse due to hormonal influence) what it wants to see.
 
Henrin said:
There is no way to change your sex, so there is no such thing as a sex change. The surgery has a proper name, so use it.
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Ugh. There is such a thing as getting sex change. I hope you realise that a sex change is not the same thing as sexual reassignment surgery.


The treatment damages their body considerably,
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It doesn't damage their body at all. It's just that the physical changes associated with the therapy are irreversible, which is why hormone treatments and getting a sex change is still somewhat controversial.

makes their brain even more feminine/masculine,
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I don't even know if this is true or not. But even if it is, so the **** what? What's the problem with that?

[/QUOTE]
shortens their life span, and increases their risk of cancer. [/QUOTE]

Whether getting a sex change increases the risk of getting ovarian cancer is still a unknown at this point. And because the population of trans people is so low (less than 1% of the population), this question will probably never be answered.

There is nothing desirable about the treatment nor is it ethically sound for doctors to take part in it as it violates their oath.
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How the **** is it not desirable for the trans people that want it? First off, who are you to tell trans people what is and isn't desirable about the treatment?
And secondly, the trans people that go through these treatments already want to identify as the opposite gender, so getting a sex change or going through hormone therapy will help them with that. It's the reason why they do it in the first place.

And how is any of this not ethically sound? Nothing about the treatments defies any moral ethics.

And how are those doctors violating their oath? They are helping their patients in the best way possible, and this is why they administer this specific treatment to these patients.

It increases improves their mood and lowers depression only because the treatment is giving the brain(that is now even worse due to hormonal influence) what it wants to see.
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So the treatment improves trans people's mood and lowers depression, but you still have a problem with it because the treatment is giving the brain what it "wants to see"? Who gives a flying **** about that? Why does that even matter in the slightest?
 
TheGoverness said:
Ugh. There is such a thing as getting sex change. I hope you realise that a sex change is not the same thing as sexual reassignment surgery.
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You do realize they can't change their sex, right? Furthermore, the hormones and the surgery still leaves considerable room to make up. For one thing, there is differences between the basic functionality and structure of a man made created vagina and the real thing, and for another, there is several organs not involved in any of it. I would also add that the structure of the body itself is not the same and there is several areas on the body that you can you see the differences. That is of course not even going into such matters as genetics.


It doesn't damage their body at all. It's just that the physical changes associated with the therapy are irreversible, which is why hormone treatments and getting a sex change is still somewhat controversial.
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Lose of function and cellular damage are just two of the harms caused by the treatment. The fact is hormones(like testosterone) and puberty for that matter have an effect on cells of the body that shorten the life span of the individual. It is one of the reasons that men with higher testosterone levels live shorter lives, why castrated men live longer than other men, and why men in general live shorter lives than women. You can not simply cause someone to go through puberty(in many cases for the second time) without negatively impacting their life span. You can also not cut up someones genitals and do the surgery without removing bodily function.


I don't even know if this is true or not. But even if it is, so the **** what? What's the problem with that?
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The problem itself is that the brain developed wrong in certain areas due to hormonal imbalance in the womb. When you further that imbalance after birth it causes the brain to become even more feminine/masculine. For example, in MTF's the brain actually shrinks to be more feminine. It would seem logical that if you want to make the problem better that the one thing you don't want to do is make the brain even more twisted towards the wrong gender.

shortens their life span, and increases their risk of cancer.

Whether getting a sex change increases the risk of getting ovarian cancer is still a unknown at this point. And because the population of trans people is so low (less than 1% of the population), this question will probably never be answered.
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It's not just ovarian cancer, but cancer in general. The hormones affect their whole body and cause considerable stress to it, which increases the risk of cancer.


How the **** is it not desirable for the trans people that want it? First off, who are you to tell trans people what is and isn't desirable about the treatment?
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I already told you why. :shrug:

And secondly, the trans people that go through these treatments already want to identify as the opposite gender, so getting a sex change or going through hormone therapy will help them with that. It's the reason why they do it in the first place.
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Just because someone wants something doesn't mean giving them that is the medical answer.

And how is any of this not ethically sound? Nothing about the treatments defies any moral ethics.

And how are those doctors violating their oath? They are helping their patients in the best way possible, and this is why they administer this specific treatment to these patients.
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Removing function from a healthy organ is clearly a violation of the oath. If you think removing healthy testicles is not violating the oath then you clearly haven't read it.

So the treatment improves trans people's mood and lowers depression, but you still have a problem with it because the treatment is giving the brain what it "wants to see"? Who gives a flying **** about that? Why does that even matter in the slightest?
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You do realize that the entire point of treatment is to resolve medical problems, right? What is the medical condition? How does giving the medical condition what it wants treating it?
 
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Henrin said:
You do realize they can't change their sex, right? Furthermore, the hormones and the surgery still leaves considerable room to make up. For one thing, there is differences between the basic functionality and structure of man made created vagina and the real thing, and for another, there is several organs not involved in any of it. I would also add that structure of the body itself is still not same and there is several areas on the body that can you see the differences. That is of course not even going into such matters as genetics.
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Of course I understand they can't actually change their sex. Duh. But that does not change the fact that there is such thing as a sex change.

And of course there are going to be noticeable differences, they aren't actually what gender they chose to identify as. But so what? Is that supposed to be a concern?


Lose of function and cellular damage are just two of the harms causes by the treatment. The fact is hormones(like testosterone) and puberty for that matter have an effect on cells of the body that shorten the life span of the individual. It is one of the reasons that men with higher testosterone levels live shorter lives, why castrated men live longer than other men, and why men in general live shorter lives than women. You can not simply cause someone to go through puberty(in many cases for the second time) without negatively impacting their life span. You can also not cut up someones genitals and do the surgery without removing bodily function.
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Well, male transgenders could probably expect an increased life expectancy, while female transgenders could probably expect a decreased life expectancy, on average.

And I can't find any evidence that sexual reassignment surgery causes cellular damage.

And why does it matter if transgender people's genitals lose their bodily function? That's already a given.


The problem itself is that the brain developed wrong in certain areas due to hormonal imbalance in the womb.
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It's not just hormones. Genetic variation, differences in brain functioning and brain structures are some of the factors for the biological etiology of the symptoms associated with gender dysphoria.

When you further that imbalance after birth it causes the brain to become even more feminine/masculine. For example, in MTF's the brain actually shrinks to be more feminine. It would seem logical that if you want to make the problem better that the one thing you don't want to do is make the brain even more twisted towards the wrong gender.
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You can't help transgender people's condition by trying to push them into trying to act like the gender they were born as. That's not going to do any good for them. You can't cure GID, but the best we can do is help transgender people adapt to their condition, which is why we have various ways to treat transgender people's condition. Any of the attempts to "cure" GID by changing the patient's gender identity to reflect birth characteristics have been proven ineffective.

[/QUOTE]
It's not just ovarian cancer, but cancer in general. The hormones affect their whole body and cause considerable stress to it.
The only thing I can find that it could possibly increase the risk of is getting ovarian and endometrial cancer. But I've already said that whether or not this actually increases the risk is still a unknown.


Just because someone wants something doesn't mean giving them that is the medical answer.
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This isn't just something that they want. It is something that can help their condition. I'd rather them go through these procedures than suffer from depression and anxiety their entire lives.
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Removing bodily function due to a healthy organ is clearly a violation of the oath.
They are removing it because of their condition.


You do realize that the entire point of treatment is to resolve medical problems, right? What is the medical condition? How does giving the medical condition what it wants treating it?
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Lol, these treatments are resolving the medical problem to the best that we can. This condition is incurable, and the worst thing you can do is try to force trans people's mindset into acting like the gender they were assigned at at birth. Their brain isn't wired for that.

Trans people suffer greatly from depression, anxiety, and suicidal tendencies. Trying to push them into acting like the gender they were born as WILL NOT help that. If anything it will most likely cause them to commit suicide, as suicide rates for trans people are in the about in the 60% range. The best we can do is help trans people adapt to their condition so they can function normally in society.
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TheGoverness said:
Of course I understand they can't actually change their sex. Duh. But that does not change the fact that there is such thing as a sex change.
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How in the hell can they factually be incapable of changing their sex and at the same time get a sex change?

And of course there are going to be noticeable differences, they aren't actually what gender they chose to identify as. But so what? Is that supposed to be a concern?
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But that's the point. :/ Why should we call them something they are not? How does that even begin to make sense?


Well, male transgenders could probably expect an increased life expectancy, while female transgenders could probably expect a decreased life expectancy, on average.
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I wouldn't think so. The fact that they are on average going through puberty for the second time I would think would void that out.

And why does it matter if transgender people's genitals lose their bodily function? That's already a given.
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Because that is damage to their healthy body. How is that not obvious?

It's not just hormones. Genetic variation, differences in brain functioning and brain structures are some of the factors for the biological etiology of the symptoms associated with gender dysphoria.
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There is no evidence of genetic differences that I can find on the issue. Also, some of that stuff you mentioned is caused by the hormones.

You can't help transgender people's condition by trying to push them into trying to act like the gender they were born as. That's not going to do any good for them. You can't cure GID, but the best we can do is help transgender people adapt to their condition, which is why we have various ways to treat transgender people's condition. Any of the attempts to "cure" GID by changing the patient's gender identity to reflect birth characteristics have been proven ineffective.
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That's only because we don't know how to do it.

They are removing it because of their condition.
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There is nothing wrong with the genitals and therefore no reason to act on them.
 
Restrooms should be divided by fashion sense. There should be fashion police who look at each person entering.
"Oh Honey no. You need to use THAT bathroom around the corner, behind the janitor's closet."

Don't mind me, I'm just trying to stay ahead of the absurdity.
 
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