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Do natural rights exist?[W:811:1629]

Do natural rights exist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 44 52.4%

  • No

    Votes: 40 47.6%
  • Total voters
    84
Re: Do natural rights exist?

polgara said:
Greetings, Lutherf. :2wave:

While I agree 100 percent with your definition of rights as most countries define them, North Korea and other countries ruled by despots don't see them as "natural rights," or they would not repress their people the way they do. When a general can be executed because a missile launch fails, or their leader has an uncle he disagrees with, as examples, I can only hope there is a very hot place in Hell reserved in that leader's name! Why doesn't the UN do something for the people that are forced to exist in a horror of a country like that? :thumbdown: :2mad:
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Generally speaking, the social contract is constructed for the purpose of preserving natural rights. For example, it's easier to assert your right to life if, as a society, you organize groups to hunt mammoth, gather grain and defend the village from barbarians. Maintaining an equitable distribution of labor and resolving disputes related to that distribution result in government as a means to accomplish that task. Government then establishes laws and civil rights which grant privilege and/or institute penalties for abuses of natural rights. In extreme cases a government may decide that recognizing natural rights makes managing the individual interests of the citizens too complex. When that happens they often choose to suppress those rights in favor of a wholly managed society. Since natural rights still exist people tend to resist that suppression and, in the interests of managing of their society, government then exercises force against the "dissidents".
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Viking11 said:
I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights.
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Because you are looking at the outside nature as the supposed source. Look at the human nature. As humans, we are endowed (whether by God or by natural evolution, doesn't matter) with volition, with the ability to choose. Our life has meaning only when we are free to exercise that ability, otherwise we are slaves or robots. Hence the idea of natural rights - practical, legal expression of the basic idea of freedom of choice.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Natural rights is a human concept. Religion, science, math, politics, music, art, are all human concepts. These concepts exist because we created them as a means of helping us live our lives. None of these concepts was discovered in the natural world, rather they are used to help explain and cope with our lives in the natural world. The right to live is a concept we create to give more weight to what we do naturally. All living things try to stay alive, regardless of any right to do so.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Henrin said:
But lets all keep in mind that there is a right to choose. Right Minnie?

You know, because having the right to control your own body wouldn't necessary imply there is a right to maintain that body. lol.
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In the US we have the US Constitution and the first Amendment grants religious liberty to all religions and those who are not religious.

The pro choice position regarding abortion allows all religions and those who are not religious to follow the tenets of their faiths or beliefs.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Viking11 said:
I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.
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If you are an atheist then your philosophical gods are Machiavelli and Nietzsche.

According to them you will rise as high on the human food chain as your Will will carry you.

Natural rights are a theoretical concept of John Locke.

John Locke starts his philosophy with "God has ...".

Obviously this has nothing to do with you.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Either you are an atheist or not.

Get out your drawing board and make up your mind and choose.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

minnie616 said:
In the US we have the US Constitution and the first Amendment grants religious liberty to all religions and those who are not religious.

The pro choice position regarding abortion allows all religions and those who are not religious to follow the tenets of their faiths or beliefs.
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Minnie my dear friend, all you have to say is that in the USA that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land.

You don't need to justify it.

7 out of 9 justices on the Burger SCOTUS have already justified it for you, my dear friend.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

If you have natural rights you gave them up when you accepted living in a community.
Want them back? Go so far out that you have no contact with a community.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

polgara said:
Greetings, Lutherf. :2wave:

While I agree 100 percent with your definition of rights as most countries define them, North Korea and other countries ruled by despots don't see them as "natural rights," or they would not repress their people the way they do. When a general can be executed because a missile launch fails, or their leader has an uncle he disagrees with, as examples, I can only hope there is a very hot place in Hell reserved in that leader's name! Why doesn't the UN do something for the people that are forced to exist in a horror of a country like that? :thumbdown: :2mad:
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MacArthur was right when he told Truman that we should have nuked China when we had the chance and freed N.Korea from communist slavery.

Truman was a *****cat and did not have the balls to do it.

We will probably get another chance soon.

China and N.Korea are moving towards war with the USA sometime soon.

So we will get another chance to nuke China and beat the sh!t out of N.Korea and free their people.

Keep your fingers crossed.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Grand Mal said:
If you have natural rights you gave them up when you accepted living in a community.
Want them back? Go so far out that you have no contact with a community.
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No way.

My 5.56x45mm carbine and my 45ACP pistol and my ammo bandoleer ensure that I myself will always have natural rights.

Anybody who tries to take them away, such as the New Orleans police chief and mayor, and their minions, will die.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

the reason why natural rights are so important is that we have to understand the extent of natural rights as VIEWED by the founders to understand the extent of the rights incorporated and recognized by the Founders in the Bill of Rights. Those who try to pretend that the bill of rights are somehow limited so as to allow the government control those people want-are the ones who engage in the specious claim "natural rights don't exist"

they certainly existed to the founders and that is why anyone who wants to understand the constitution properly have to UNDERSTAND what those rights were conceived to be by the founders.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

TurtleDude said:
the reason why natural rights are so important is that we have to understand the extent of natural rights as VIEWED by the founders to understand the extent of the rights incorporated and recognized by the Founders in the Bill of Rights. Those who try to pretend that the bill of rights are somehow limited so as to allow the government control those people want-are the ones who engage in the specious claim "natural rights don't exist"

they certainly existed to the founders and that is why anyone who wants to understand the constitution properly have to UNDERSTAND what those rights were conceived to be by the founders.
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We don't have to understand any of that TD.

Might simply makes right. Aristotle was right about that.

Yay though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I fear no evil.

For there is nothing on this Earth that I cannot kill.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

If these rights were natural, they would be universal. Nature has not separated human life from animals and plants life so distinctly that animals and plants would have more rights than us. Do animals and plants have these so-called natural rights too? If not, why not? If truly they are natural (universal) rights, they should be inherited by all living things not only humans.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Pozessed said:
If these rights were natural, they would be universal. Nature has not separated human life from animals and plants life so distinctly that animals and plants would have more rights than us. Do animals and plants have these so-called natural rights to? If not, why not? If truly they are natural (universal) rights, they should be inherited by all living things not only humans.
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Correct. Might makes right.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Grand Mal said:
If you have natural rights you gave them up when you accepted living in a community.
Want them back? Go so far out that you have no contact with a community.
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That's an interesting concept: Live in the city and have very few rights, move to the suburbs and get more rights, move to the exurbs and get even more, to an isolated small town and get more still. What about those pesky police helicopters that prevent people from having their own private auto salvage yard?

I have indeed noticed less of a tendency up in your "Great White North" to enforce the concept unless the government specifically gives you permission to go somewhere, you can't go there.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Riveroaks said:
We don't have to understand any of that TD.

Might simply makes right. Aristotle was right about that.

Yay though I walk thru the valley of the shadow of death I fear no evil.

For there is nothing on this Earth that I cannot kill.
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Interesting. Mutually assured destruction?

The people i see whining the most about natural rights are those who don't like the government being limited by the Bill of Rights.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

SDET said:
That's an interesting concept: Live in the city and have very few rights, move to the suburbs and get more rights, move to the exurbs and get even more, to an isolated small town and get more still. What about those pesky police helicopters that prevent people from having their own private auto salvage yard?

I have indeed noticed less of a tendency up in your "Great White North" to enforce the concept unless the government specifically gives you permission to go somewhere, you can't go there.
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I dated a lady who was from the Great White North and before she would let us have carnal knowledge together she wanted to make sure I am Aryan.

Fortunately I have an Aryan name.

Fortunately I am 88% Aryan.

12% is Keltic Scottish.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

TurtleDude said:
Interesting. Mutually assured destruction?

The people i see whining the most about natural rights are those who don't like the government being limited by the Bill of Rights.
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I'll defer to your expertise on the whiners.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Riveroaks said:
I'll defer to your expertise on the whiners.
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I have a PhD on whineocology
Took ten years of study at this institution to get the degree:mrgreen:
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Viking11 said:
I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.
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You - are - right. "Rights" are a human construct that is derived from law, or the social contract.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

minnie616 said:
In the US we have the US Constitution and the first Amendment grants religious liberty to all religions and those who are not religious.

The pro choice position regarding abortion allows all religions and those who are not religious to follow the tenets of their faiths or beliefs.
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I have no idea what that has to do with my post, but ok.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

minnie616 said:
As I posted on another thread there are no natural rights especially the right to life.
Laws regarding so called "rights " are man made laws.

Government cannot protect citizens from being killed.
It can provide punishment for those who break laws.
It can declare war and put our military people in harms way.
It can draft men or women who do not want to be a part of the armed service and send them off to war.

There is no right to life.
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That may be your personal belief, but our law says exactly the contrary--just as the English common law it derives from had said for centuries. The Declaration of Independence asserts that it is a self-evident truth that we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among these is the right to life. That same principle was codified fifteen years later in the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment, and in 1868 it was again codified in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, so that it applies to both the federal and state governments.

If people in this country had no right to life, it would make no sense for the Constitution to say that "no person shall . . . be deprived of life . . . without due process of law." No procedure would be needed to deprive a person of a thing he had no right to in the first place. Until such time as the two due process clauses are nullified by amendment, all persons in this country will have a legally enforceable right to life. It is exactly because they have that right that we don't execute even the worst murderers without giving them a jury trial and, if convicted, appeals.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

matchlight said:
That may be your personal belief, but our law says exactly the contrary--just as the English common law it derives from had said for centuries. The Declaration of Independence asserts that it is a self-evident truth that we are endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights, and that among these is the right to life. That same principle was codified fifteen years later in the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment, and in 1868 it was again codified in the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, so that it applies to both the federal and state governments.

If people in this country had no right to life, it would make no sense for the Constitution to say that "no person shall . . . be deprived of life . . . without due process of law." No procedure would be needed to deprive a person of a thing he had no right to in the first place. Until such time as the two due process clauses are nullified by amendment, all persons in this country will have a legally enforceable right to life. It is exactly because they have that right that we don't execute even the worst murderers without giving them a jury trial and, if convicted, appeals.
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You obviously have NOT read Roe v. Wade yet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/410/113.html
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

matchlight said:
I have read it several times. If you want to challenge something I wrote, then state your case, in plain English.
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Yah I think if you are going to ignore Roe then you are a radial anarchist.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
 
Re: Do natural rights exist?

Riveroaks said:
Yah I think if you are going to ignore Roe then you are a radial anarchist.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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I don't have a pipe. :(
 
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