DeeJayH

one could say terrorists volunteer to be waterboarded
they could avoid it by talking prior to being waterboarded
they chose to play hardball and well, there you have it

there is no reason to waterboard every person taking into custody in hte war on terror
but the upper eschelon and high value targets, water board the **** out of them

some people need to realize that the glorious high times of our past, in which we were so superior than under Dubya, was either an illusion, a secret, or a lie
remember when the press kept the dirt of politicians secret
now they dont, and people seem to think that all of a sudden, only recently have we become such a deplorabe nation with lowered standards
it was just good PR before
now you know what it takes
deal with it

now if you want to argue about this during peace time, there will be nothign to argue about, for i will be on your side
whatever it takes to win
anything else is suicide
everything that led to us being a superpower is now an atrocity
cant ahve it both ways

let the furious assault on me begin

__________________
These days it seems that the deadliest place on earth for an American to be is inside the womb. - Joshua P. Allem

suicide_turtle_bomber

I don't know what world you live in but in my world the U.S. has been hated for all 33 years of my life by a good 80% of the world.

Lightdemon

Right, which goes back to your point about giving bad information. Because if the victim does not actually have any useful information, s/he is either forced to make things up or keep getting waterboarded.

But still, there is the degree of freedom. Those who volunteer to be waterboarded have nothing to lose. Those who are coerced have some stake involved, otherwise, why would they be resisting interrogation?

__________________
Democrats are thieves
Republicans are thieves too,
Where's my liberty?
- by Ethereal

Panache

Yup. You won't see me taking up any arguments about it being effective, I am just not sure it is really torture when used in moderation. Or at least not torture in the common, emotionally charged sense of the word.

Certainly there is a greater degree of freedom, but I fail to see what that has to do with whether or not an particular tequnique is torture or not. Of course those who are coerced will have a greater stake invovled.

Lightdemon

I've thought we've established that waterboarding is in fact torture? You're problem now, as you stated, was the reason why is one torture more condemnable than the other if it is the same technique.

And I think I've already shown you why the degrees of freedom make one condition more condemnable than the other, or was that not sufficient?

Panache

I like to deal in hypotheticals. If it is torture then x if it isn't, then y. I doubt sufficent evidence will be brought into this discussion to convince me one way or the other. It would involve a much more detailed definition of torture than has been given and evidence that waterboarding met such criteria and that peanut butter and jelly sandwiches did not.

Actually, I don't have any trouble understanding why some people would regard using torture on terrorists as not being particularly condemnable.

What I couldn't figure out was why using torture on our own people was not condemnable.

I didn't really follow how the fact that the terrorist has a stake in resisting makes the proceduce more condemnable when applied to them?

I would point out that the trainee has a stake in it as well since it is required in order for them to complete their training and achieve their career goals.

26 X World Champs

Really? What an interesting comment. My job has allowed me to travel all over the world for many years and IMHO you couldn't be more wrong regarding feelings other nations have for America. Until our current President we were very well respected and never more so than when Clinton was President.

There's no doubt that America's decline in world opinion is directly related to the policies of the current Bush Administration and spearheaded by the worst President in my 51 years, George W. Bush!

independent_thinker2002

Do you have a source for your silly claim? Have you even visited 80% of the world?

__________________
==]:{o

DeeJayH

because during the Clinton years we were viewed as a cute paper tiger
terrorists awoke the sleeping giant
and the world has trembled because of it
and they are right to do it
we will die for our friends/allies
and rain hell down upon our enemies
what exactly is wrong with that irregardless of our popularity
popularity has nothing to do with whats right, or necessary
and i would argue, often contradict one another
our inactivity of the past has led to the situation we currently face

tryreading

Right, it is not a simulation. It is actual drowning.