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Should Trump have to get the required number of delegates to win GOP nomination?

Should Trump have to get the required number of delegates to win GOP nomination?

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X Factor

X Factor

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I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
 
"Some other response not covered in the first 3 options"

Mainly because that is not quite the absolute that everyone is making it out to be. If Trump gets the required delegates there is still the outside chance that party shenanigans could force him out no matter how improbable it may be. The so called "nuclear option" reserved for the condition where no one has enough delegates but the front-runner still does not win.

So, "should Trump have to get the required number of delegates to win GOP nomination?" He may have no practical choice... just to make it that much more complicated and sinister for the majority of delegates (presumably including his) at the convention to change the rules.

The thing to keep in mind is the primary process is not really a democratic process. It looks like it is, but in reality the delegates at the convention can effectively set up their own rules based on the conditions of the primary race. All they would really have to do, no matter if Trump has the threshold delegates or is still out front but not at threshold, is vote to change the rules and set themselves up to vote for whichever candidate they want. It could literally be done in closed meeting as the political parties themselves have no oversight with the announcement made at the end of the convention.

The only way to make this less likely to happen is Trump not just getting the threshold delegates but obtain even more to ensure any backroom shenanigans runs into as much opposition as possible. It is a mess for the party right now and I suspect they are looking for methods to avoid Trump being the nominee no matter how many delegates he holds at that point.
 
OrphanSlug said:
"Some other response not covered in the first 3 options"

Mainly because that is not quite the absolute that everyone is making it out to be. If Trump gets the required delegates there is still the outside chance that party shenanigans could force him out no matter how improbable it may be. The so called "nuclear option" reserved for the condition where no one has enough delegates but the front-runner still does not win.

So, "should Trump have to get the required number of delegates to win GOP nomination?" He may have no practical choice... just to make it that much more complicated and sinister for the majority of delegates (presumably including his) at the convention to change the rules.

The thing to keep in mind is the primary process is not really a democratic process. It looks like it is, but in reality the delegates at the convention can effectively set up their own rules based on the conditions of the primary race. All they would really have to do, no matter if Trump has the threshold delegates or is still out front but not at threshold, is vote to change the rules and set themselves up to vote for whichever candidate they want. It could literally be done in closed meeting as the political parties themselves have no oversight with the announcement made at the end of the convention.

The only way to make this less likely to happen is Trump not just getting the threshold delegates but obtain even more to ensure any backroom shenanigans runs into as much opposition as possible. It is a mess for the party right now and I suspect they are looking for methods to avoid Trump being the nominee no matter how many delegates he holds at that point.
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Interesting but a little non sequitur. This is all about Trump obtaining the requisite number of delegates. Should that happen, as much as I dislike the thought, he should get the nomination. If he fails, though, it's like leaving a boxing or MMA match up to the judges. Can't really complain if you didn't score the KO.
 
I voted NO since he could come up short and still get the nomination since he is so close and they want to close ranks and avoid angering him and his supporters. And that is a real possibility.

At this point, the entire GOP Convention menu has only options on it which will cause them to lose in November and lose big.

option A - Trump wins the primaries and nomination and loses the general.
option B - Cruz pulls a miracle and catches trump and wins the nomination cleanly and loses the general
option C - Trump comes up a bit short and the rest of the part unites to give it to somebody else. Trump goes rogue third party and the GOP loses in November

There is no path for GOP success in November.

Its a lose/lose situation for the Republican Party and they only have themselves to blame for it.
 
haymarket said:
I voted NO since he could come up short and still get the nomination since he is so close and they want to close ranks and avoid angering him and his supporters. And that is a real possibility.

At this point, the entire GOP Convention menu has only options on it which will cause them to lose in November and lose big.

option A - Trump wins the primaries and nomination and loses the general.
option B - Cruz pulls a miracle and catches trump and wins the nomination cleanly and loses the general
option C - Trump comes up a bit short and the rest of the part unites to give it to somebody else. Trump goes rogue third party and the GOP loses in November

There is no path for GOP success in November.

Its a lose/lose situation for the Republican Party and they only have themselves to blame for it.
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Agree, except with Option C.
I think a significant amount of Trump supporters will "riot" (figurative or literal) and he won't have to run 3rd party.
They'll just lose from a lack of participation.
 
X Factor said:
Interesting but a little non sequitur. This is all about Trump obtaining the requisite number of delegates. Should that happen, as much as I dislike the thought, he should get the nomination. If he fails, though, it's like leaving a boxing or MMA match up to the judges. Can't really complain if you didn't score the KO.
Click to expand...

I question if you know what "non sequitur" means. The problem here is the rules of a convention can be changed, you do not get to avoid that.

So the scenarios...

If Trump obtains the required number of delegates, than I agree he *should* be the nominee no matter my own personal position on the GOP committing suicide... but that does not mean we get to rule out what the party is capable of behind the scenes. They literally can do anything they want via rules changes.

If Trump does not obtain the required number of delegates but is still out front in delegate count at convention, then it is still not like leaving it up to MMA judges. Similar reason, the rules can be changed and they can broker any deal they would like. MMA judges do not get to change the rules to vote for whom they want for whatever reason. The GOP on the other hand can do really whatever the hell they want.

If by some miracle or disaster or whatever Trump is no longer the front runner in delegate count at the convention *and* no one still has the required number, then all bets are off the table and Trump cannot complain about the results.

That is how I see things as they stand today. No matter what happens at convention the one aspect you nor I get to ignore is the power of the party to change the rules. Using your MMA comparison, it would be like seeing one fighter completely KO the other... and the MMA change the rules after the fact, and hand the win to the guy sleeping on the mat.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I question if you know what "non sequitur" means. The problem here is the rules of a convention can be changed, you do not get to avoid that.

So the scenarios...

If Trump obtains the required number of delegates, than I agree he *should* be the nominee no matter my own personal position on the GOP committing suicide... but that does not mean we get to rule out what the party is capable of behind the scenes. They literally can do anything they want via rules changes.

If Trump does not obtain the required number of delegates but is still out front in delegate count at convention, then it is still not like leaving it up to MMA judges. Similar reason, the rules can be changed and they can broker any deal they would like. MMA judges do not get to change the rules to vote for whom they want for whatever reason. The GOP on the other hand can do really whatever the hell they want.

If by some miracle or disaster or whatever Trump is no longer the front runner in delegate count at the convention *and* no one still has the required number, then all bets are off the table and Trump cannot complain about the results.

That is how I see things as they stand today. No matter what happens at convention the one aspect you nor I get to ignore is the power of the party to change the rules. Using your MMA comparison, it would be like seeing one fighter completely KO the other... and the MMA change the rules after the fact, and hand the win to the guy sleeping on the mat.
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Except if he doesn't secure the delegates, it's not a KO.
 
I think the delegate system is a scam so no, no, and no.
I think both the Pepsi and Coca-Cola parties need to abolish the delegates and let the people decide.

But that's just me.
 
X Factor said:
I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
Click to expand...

They like to play by the rules, until they don't.
There's no solid answer for this really.

If they were smart, they'd cut their losses and support Trump, while extracting concessions from him, to reign him in.
They are not, they are idiots to the max.

One thing I think that's guaranteed after this election.
There will be no more Bernies or Trumps, they're both going to change the rules and vet all the candidates more.
No more turning over any apple carts.
This is our chance at a 3rd party and it's our last.
 
X Factor said:
Except if he doesn't secure the delegates, it's not a KO.
Click to expand...

You entirely missed the point. When it comes to party politics and the latitude that a party can give itself in rules, there is potential for a KO to still not mean a win.

How have you not picked up on this already?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Agree, except with Option C.
I think a significant amount of Trump supporters will "riot" (figurative or literal) and he won't have to run 3rd party.
They'll just lose from a lack of participation.
Click to expand...

yes - that also would be an option.... and ending up in the same GOP loss in November.
 
X Factor said:
I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
Click to expand...

Wrong - the question is that if he gets the required number of delegates will he still get the nomination.
 
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SMTA said:
Wrong - the question is that if he gets the required number of delegates will he still get the nomination?
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I took the question to mean - in advance of the first ballot voting. In other words, he has a certain number going into the convention but is short of the minimum required.

Of course he will have to hit the magic number to be nominated once balloting begins.

Which is a real issue given the stories surfacing last week that the Cruz and Kasich campaigns are trying to secure some of their own supporters as Trump delegates in states where he has won them. It brings up the possibility of Trump just squeaking by with a few delegates over the minimum number required for nomination but literally getting cheated not he floor from moles like I just described. I wonder what the reaction would then be if Trump fell a few votes short on that first ballot?
 
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SMTA said:
Wrong - the question is that if he gets the required number of delegates will he still get the nomination?
Click to expand...

IF he gets the required number of delegates he gets the nomination, but the trick will be him getting the required number if he doesn't secure them BEFORE the convention. Whoever can secure the proper amount once there should be the nominee...

I get the worries both by Trump supporters and those in the GOP who shudder at the mere thought the Orange Guy MIGHT win...

But I don't see how the backroom Party officials can take delegates away from anyone and award them to another...

Either way the GOP convention won't have to over-hype their convention to get plenty of coverage and viewership... :peace
 
haymarket said:
I took the question to mean - in advance of the first ballot voting. In other words, he has a certain number going into the convention but is short of the minimum required.

Of course he will have to hit the magic number to be nominated once balloting begins.

Which is a real issue given the stories surfacing last week that the Cruz and Kasich campaigns are trying to secure some of their own supporters as Trump delegates in states where he has won them. It brings up the possibility of Trump just squeaking by with a few delegates over the minimum number required for nomination but literally getting cheated not he floor from moles like I just described. I wonder what the reaction would then be if Trump fell a few votes short on that first ballot?
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Ah - I took the question literally.

There is rightfully a lot of concern having such an uneducated bully such as Trump winning anything that would put him close to the POTUS seat.

There have been more than a few meetings trying to figure a way to undermine his ridiculous political rise.

The other side of that coin, though, is that sometimes voters deserve the candidates that they select.

The rub for normal folks like me is that I don't want to live with other moron's mistake of a president.

I detest the current political status quo, but I refuse to vote for a ****ing moron like Trump just because I am pissed off.

Hopefully, Trump's karma will catch up quickly and shut his ass down.
 
X Factor said:
I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
Click to expand...

The answer is "Some other response not covered in the first 3 options ". If Trump gets 1237, then he will get the nomination. While there are ways the nomination could be withheld, the odds of such happening if he gets 1237 are vanishingly small. Trump should have to get 1237 to win on the first ballot. After that, the GOP, in my opinion(and it is worth noting I am not a republican, so take the opinion for what it is worth), should simply play it as the rules are currently written. This means that Trump could, but might not get the nomination without reaching 1237 pledge delegates.

It should also be noted that you frame your questions somewhat wrong. In order for any one to get the nomination, they need to get the required number of delegates. They can get them as pledge delegates in the first round of voting, or a combination of pledge and released delegates in later rounds. Either way, the voting continues until some one gets the required number of delegates. And thank you for letting me get my anal retentive OCD fix in your thread.
 
Ntharotep said:
I think the delegate system is a scam so no, no, and no.
I think both the Pepsi and Coca-Cola parties need to abolish the delegates and let the people decide.

But that's just me.
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I agree 100%. [Except I voted yes.]

It's a damn shame the GOP does have the ability to change the rules, etc. and is so eager and willing to circumvent the people's choice.


Due to votes Rubio acquired before he dropped out, I think the Candidate w/ the highest number of delegates should automatically be the nominee. (And/or redistribute Rubio's votes fairly.)



The Dem side is even less fair; Uncle Bernie doesn't have a snowflake's chance in NV of winning due to HRC's super delegates.
 
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If Trump gets more delegates and more votes than anyone else running in the GOP primary he should get the nomination regardless of weather or not he is short of the 1237..

If he gets the most votes, he has clearly beat everyone else..
 
Crusdr57 said:
I agree 100%. [I voted yes.]

It's a damn shame the GOP does have the ability to change the rules, etc. and is so eager and willing to circumvent the people's choice.
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The rule is 1237, and so far there is just about zero evidence they will change that rule.

Due to votes Rubio acquired before he dropped out, I think the Candidate w/ the highest number of delegates should automatically be the nominee. (And/or redistribute Rubio's votes fairly.)
Click to expand...

How would you "redistribute Rubio's votes fairly"?

The Dem side is even less fair; Uncle Bernie doesn't have a snowflake's chance in NV of winning due to HRC's super delegates.
Click to expand...

Unless things change significantly, superdelegates will have no effect on the democratic primary outcome. How is the person who has the most votes and most pledge delegates by far being the most likely winner somehow unfair?
 
Orly? said:
If Trump gets more delegates and more votes than anyone else running in the GOP primary he should get the nomination regardless of weather or not he is short of the 1237..

If he gets the most votes, he has clearly beat everyone else..
Click to expand...

So you support changing the rules in the middle of a contest to favor your preferred candidate?
 
The Republican party should nominate the person their voters choose to run on their platform. Let the voters ruin their party.

Hopefully someone will do the same thing to the democrats some day and we can be rid of both political parties.
 
X Factor said:
Interesting but a little non sequitur. This is all about Trump obtaining the requisite number of delegates. Should that happen, as much as I dislike the thought, he should get the nomination. If he fails, though, it's like leaving a boxing or MMA match up to the judges. Can't really complain if you didn't score the KO.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, but that's not how it works. There is no KO, even with 1,237 number. The candidates go to convention where they have a vote. To win the vote at convention you must take at least 1,237 delegates. Now, if you have that many committed before the convention, typically (rules vary state by state) they have to vote for you the first ballot. But they can go faithless in some cases.

If no one takes the 1,237 on the first ballot, there's a second ballot, where most of the delegates are then freed from their commitment and can vote however they wish (within the rules - candidate must have won at least eight states). If no one takes the 1,237 on the second ballot, there is a third. And it keeps going until someone gets the 1,237 delegates.

Only Trump and Cruz will be eligible.

Now, if Trump goes into the convention with less than 1,237, on the first ballot are like 400 uncommitted delegates (ones who are committed to candidates who have since dropped out of the race - in most cases they are free to vote for whomever they want on the first ballot). If just a portion of them vote Trump, that'll be enough to put him over the top on the very first ballot.
 
Redress said:
The rule is 1237, and so far there is just about zero evidence they will change that rule.



How would you "redistribute Rubio's votes fairly"?



Unless things change significantly, superdelegates will have no effect on the democratic primary outcome. How is the person who has the most votes and most pledge delegates by far being the most likely winner somehow unfair?
Click to expand...

I'd divide them equally 3 ways.


The Dem system is unfair. The 'most likely winner' is not necessarily the people's choice. (Also, remember in Iowa, they flipped a coin [6 times] to decide that HRC won.)
 
X Factor said:
I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
Click to expand...
I picked Some other response not covered in the first 3 options. Who ever gets the closest to 2,472 should get it regardless if the closest is a 100, 200 or more behind 2,472. The GOP will only **** themselves in the general if they give the nomination to someone who did not come the closest. Because the GOP can argue until their face turns blue that voters don't pick the nomination, but that is not how voters see it.
 
X Factor said:
I'm seeing some suggestion of foul play by Trump supporters if Trump isn't awarded the nomination regardless of whether he has all the delegates needed or not. Still, it's not like those rules are new or made up just for this election. Is there some reason things should operate differently this year?

poll on the way
Click to expand...

Yes those are the rules for the GOP! He should have run as a democrat if he wanted more lenient rules on this type of stuff as more of their delegates are proportional rather than winner take all. The reason trump supporters think Trump should get the nomination even if he doesn't get the required number of delegates is because they think he will get close enough. Well, as you should have learned in school, close enough, isn't winning!
 
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