Immirgartion vs. Migration. Should Public Policy Differentiate Between the Two?

There has been a lot of debate surrounding how America should handle the issues of Latin American immigrants and Moslem refugees.

Those arguing for a liberal acceptance with open arms base their arguments on humanitarian principles and often quote "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" from the Statue of Liberty.

Those arguing against speak of terrorism, job competition, crime.

However, I think we need to recognize that we are actually dealing with two types of "huddled masses," Immigrants and Migrants. They are not the same thing, and I suggest we not not lump them together when developing public policy on immigration.

1. An immigrant is a person who desires to seek a new life in a society he admires and wishes to become a part of. His intention is to try to integrate and become an accepted member. This does not mean surrendering all cultural differences, but it does indicate a willingness to blend in as much as possible. I laud this group and have no problem with easing immigration laws as long as we insure all applicants properly follow immigration law.

2. A migrant is either fleeing a bad situation and merely looking for a new place to set up his old culture, or someone who is seeking temporary economic advantages with every intention of returning to the home country. Depending on which type we are dealing with I have some concerns with how we deal with them.

An example of economic migrants are those Mexicans who cross the border seeking seasonal work. They come, huddle together in cramped apartments, work wherever and however they can, save everything they can and then go back across the border and live on the money they earned here. That is their sole purpose. I have no problem with this group because they don't really take away any jobs that a typical American would want to do. They fill a niche, do their jobs, and try to stay under the radar until they can go home. I can accept easing work visa laws for this type of migrant.

However, Somalians, Syrians, and other refugees from Africa, Asia and the Middle East are a different story. As amply demonstrated both here (with Somali's) and in Europe (Moslems), they are simply attempting to transplant their entire culture from THERE to HERE. Think in terms of historical world migrations. The Goths, Huns, Hittites, Mongols, and let's not leave this out; Europeans who came to America. In every case the new culture will inevitably clash with the old and only one can win. This is my concern.

Now I don't think we need a "Great Wall" along any border. However, I do believe we need to differentiate between true immigrants and the two types of migrants, then prevent any influx of the cultural migrations. I don't believe it is a good idea to let cultural mass migrations succeed. IMO they need to learn to stay home and deal with the problems they created rather than be allowed to transplant those problems wholesale to our country. Immigration law should prevent their entrance. If you feel sorry for them, then we should create temporary refugee camps (perhaps on some of our Pacific Island possessions) and once we have found a new "homeland" that they can re-integrate into help them return to it.

Thoughts?

Captain Adverse said:

There has been a lot of debate surrounding how America should handle the issues of Latin American immigrants and Moslem refugees.

Those arguing for a liberal acceptance with open arms base their arguments on humanitarian principles and often quote "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" from the Statue of Liberty.

Those arguing against speak of terrorism, job competition, crime.

However, I think we need to recognize that we are actually dealing with two types of "huddled masses," Immigrants and Migrants. They are not the same thing, and I suggest we not not lump them together when developing public policy on immigration.

1. An immigrant is a person who desires to seek a new life in a society he admires and wishes to become a part of. His intention is to try to integrate and become an accepted member. This does not mean surrendering all cultural differences, but it does indicate a willingness to blend in as much as possible. I laud this group and have no problem with easing immigration laws as long as we insure all applicants properly follow immigration law.

2. A migrant is either fleeing a bad situation and merely looking for a new place to set up his old culture, or someone who is seeking temporary economic advantages with every intention of returning to the home country. Depending on which type we are dealing with I have some concerns with how we deal with them.

An example of economic migrants are those Mexican's who cross the border seeking seasonal work. They come, huddle together in cramped apartments, work wherever and however they can, save everything they can and then go back across the border and live on the money they earned here. That is their sole purpose. I have no problem with this group because they don't really take away any jobs that a typical American would want to do. They fill a niche, do their jobs, and try to stay under the radar until they can go home. I can accept easing work visa laws for this type of migrant.

However, Somalians, Syrians, and other refugees from Africa, Asia and the Middle East are a different story. As amply demonstrated both here (with Somali's) and in Europe (Moslems), they are simply attempting to transplant their entire culture from THERE to HERE. Think in terms of historical world migrations. The Goths, Huns, Hittites, Mongols, and let's not leave this out; Europeans who came to America. In every case the new culture will inevitably clash with the old and only one can win. This is my concern.

Now I don't think we need a "Great Wall" along any border. However, I do believe we need to differentiate between true immigrants and migrants and prevent any influx of the cultural migrations. I don't believe it is a good idea to let cultural mass migrations succeed. IMO they need to learn to stay home and deal with the problems they created rather than be allowed to transplant those problems wholesale to our country. Immigration law should prevent there entrance. If you feel sorry for them, then we should create temporary refugee camps (perhaps on some of out Pacific Island possessions) and once we have found a new "homeland" that they can re-integrate into help them return to it.

Thoughts?

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one question i have is why do people think the u.s. MUST take all these people in?

the government is instituted to secure rights, and it cannot do that if we open the doors.

a wall will not work, because whatever size wall you build, there is always a ladder or tunnel.

only by denying them work and benefits of any kind will they self deport.

Sorry, I timed out before I could submit the poll options. I'll ask for help from a Moderator.

Master PO said:

one question i have is why do people think the u.s. MUST take all these people in?

the government is instituted to secure rights, and it cannot do that if we open the doors.

a wall will not work, because whatever size wall you build, there is always a ladder or tunnel.

only by denying them work and benefits of any kind will they self deport.

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Well, a closed door policy creates a stagnant society. I think there is still some room for growth. I simply think we should limit access to true immigrants, grant temporary access to migrant workers, and NO access to migrant cultural groups.

All great things must come to an end, and as we approach 325 million people in this country, I wonder when people will realize that immigration is an idea whose time has passed.

We'll hit half a billion people in my lifetime, and I really think that Americans are making a huge mistake by not realizing how having half a billion people will create housing shortages, more poverty, and higher competition for jobs.

This idea that the United States owes citizenship to everyone in the world will be our undoing.

Sorry, there's 7,000,000,000 people in the world, it's just not possible to give a new home to everyone who doesn't like where they were born.

Captain Adverse said:

Well, a closed door policy creates a stagnant society. I think there is still some room for growth. I simply think we should limit access to true immigrants, grant temporary access to migrant workers, and NO access to migrant cultural groups.

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i do not advocate for closed door but a policy of of moderation in people coming into this nation, and not based on the emotions of how people feel for others.

Master PO said:

one question i have is why do people think the u.s. MUST take all these people in?

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Agree and most American think the same way.

the government is instituted to secure rights, and it cannot do that if we open the doors.

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The US has probably the porous borders in the world...try sneaking into Mexico, North Korea or Iran....

a wall will not work, because whatever size wall you build, there is always a ladder or tunnel.

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Straw man argument...Do people scale the wall at the Vatican?

only by denying them work and benefits of any kind will they self deport.

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As long as there are liberals who promise them amnesty, sanctuary cities or church groups they will not be leaving anytime soon.

antiquity said:

Agree and most American think the same way.



The US has probably the porous borders in the world...try sneaking into Mexico, North Korea or Iran....



Straw man argument...Do people scale the wall at the Vatican?


As long as there are liberals who promise them amnesty, sanctuary cities or church groups they will not be leaving anytime soon.

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if america had a wall, and it was only say 10 miles long it would work, but a 1000 mile wall is not going to work

In the end, it doesn't matter. A country of 330,000 cannot take care of the other 6+ billion on the planet. We don't have the resources nor the space to put all of them. It may seem inhumane, but at some point, we simply cannot absorb them and maintain our own people.

If all these people want to get to the US because it is so much better, then give them weapons and ammunition, send them back and let them use the US as a model for rebuilding their countries.

I have a solution and here it is....

1. Foolproof national ID card for all provided free of charge.

2. Within ten years all business must have an E-verify system set up to check the national ID card against HLS data computer banks. In the mean time data would have to be entered in the HLS web site and must be verified against the HLS present data base. This would apply to both US citizens and foreign born.

3. All businesses who feel they cannot fill their employment requirements with legal workers must apply to HLS for foreign workers.

4. HLS will ask these business, can your needed labor requirements be done at prevailing wages by US citizens and/or persons who are in the US legally.

5. If the answer to question #4 is no,. then the following steps must be completed.
a. HLS will require all business needing workers to advertise in all local and in some cases national media outlets for workers to fill those required jobs at prevailing wages.
b. After a reasonable time, after the ad is placed and if the jobs are not filled, businesses my re-apply to HLS to fill jobs with foreign nationals.

6. HLS will than advertise with interested foreign governments around the world that certain jobs are available in the US at prevailing wages. Workers must apply for those jobs at the US Consul in their country of origin.

7. A mandatory back ground check must be done on all applicants by both HLS and the country of origin. These workers would be placed on a waiting list for an employment request by a US employer and clearance would be issued to anyone who passes a background check. When a request from a US employer requesting a worker, he/she is then granted a work visa to come and work in the US.

8. Workers would be allowed into the US under their own expense or the expense of the prospective employer, the US federal government would not be responsible for any transportation cost or relate cost be it housing, food or social cost. For example, a round trip ticket must be in hand when leaving for the US and that ticket must be given to the HLS for exchange for their needed green card/work visa upon arrival. The worker would stay no longer then a stated time limit would be printed on the green card not more then one year. In the case of seasonal work the green card would only apply for that duration.

9. All workers at the end of their employment stay must relinquish their green card and visa to HLS in exchange for their return ticket and they must return to their country of origin and if said worker wants to return to working the US they must wait in their country of origin for a US employer requesting for more workers needed for further employment in the US. But said workers would be placed on the top of the requesting list if said worker had no crimial offenses while employed in the US.

10. Any city, county and/or state government who harbors or protects criminal illegals aliens in any way would be denied funds of any kind. Any non-government agency who harbors or protects illegals in any manner would be denied tax exempt status. This would include any and all religious groups and/or non-profit organizations of any kind.

11. Any foreign nation who breaks our laws in any way while working here on a green card or not, will be deported immediately without appeal after the justice system is finished with them. Any city, county or state government that doesn't comply with reporting a violation of their green card status will be denied any federal monies of any kind for a set period of time or fined.

12. Any business who refuse to use the E-Verify system and employs illegal aliens would be shut down and/or fined the equivalent of one days wages for each illegal alien employed at the prevailing wage for each day of the violation. All illegals aliens who are found to be employed by said businesses would be deported immediately without appeal and that business would have to pay all costs for the illegal deportation, court cost and transportation cost included.

13. Citizenship would have to be applied for and granted just like any other person who wants to enter the US with citizenship in mind. But the citizenship application must be applied for in the country of origin and only though the US Consul in their country of origin. No citizenship application will be granted to anyone while residing in the US illegally.

You've got the issue confused from the get-go. Nothing wrong whatsoever with LEGAL migrants or LEGAL immigrants. Quit trying to conflate them with the illegal variety.

Master PO said:

if america had a wall, and it was only say 10 miles long it would work, but a 1000 mile wall is not going to work

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Of course a wall completely across our southern border would not be necessary....there is a lot terrain where it would not be required. But with an adequate number of border guards and surveillance, like drone and cameras I say it would.

clownboy said:

You've got the issue confused from the get-go. Nothing wrong whatsoever with LEGAL migrants or LEGAL immigrants. Quit trying to conflate them with the illegal variety.

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Okay but the problem is not so much the legal immigrates or migrants its the illegal ones.

antiquity said:

Of course a wall completely across our southern border would not be necessary....there is a lot terrain where it would not be required. But with an adequate number of border guards and surveillance, like drone and cameras I say it would.

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and you and i both agree as long as they are able to work in the u.s. and receive benefits they will come.

antiquity said:

Okay but the problem is not so much the legal immigrates or migrants its the illegal ones.

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Indeed, and that is where the OP goes wrong from the very beginning.

clownboy said:

You've got the issue confused from the get-go. Nothing wrong whatsoever with LEGAL migrants or LEGAL immigrants. Quit trying to conflate them with the illegal variety.

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You are the one misunderstanding my OP.

I did not "conflate" anything. :naughty

There are large numbers of people who wish to immigrate to the USA. Many follow the rules and do it step by step in accordance with law. However, many come here and try to stay via anchor babies, false documentation, marriage; and simple faith/hope for new amnesty actions.

There are also large groups of economic migrants who play by the rules, but more who don't. They simply cross the border and strive for all the crap jobs American's don't want to do.

Finally, there are the cultural migrants who claim refugee status and try to transplant their culture via growing enclaves wherever they can.

Wherever did you get the idea there was any "conflating" in this presentation? :roll:

Captain Adverse said:

There are large numbers of people who wish to immigrate to the USA. Many follow the rules and do it step by step in accordance with law. However, many come here and try to stay via anchor babies, false documentation, marriage; and simple faith/hope for new amnesty actions.

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Interesting....you just pointed out what illegals aliens do illegally to get into the US.

There are also large groups of economic migrants who play by the rules, but more who don't. They simply cross the border and strive for all the crap jobs American's don't want to do.

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Most of the jobs illegal aliens do are not crap jobs....construction, factory, landscaping etc are not crap jobs......in fact all illegal aliens do is drive down wages for people who came illegally before them or drive out the minority, mostly blacks and raise both the poverty level of legals and American citizens or raise the crime rate.

antiquity said:

Interesting....you just pointed out what illegals aliens do illegally to get into the US.

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And?

Immigration policy deals with how we handle both legal immigrants and all the methodologies used by illegal immigrants. If you follow my OP definition of the differences between immigrants and the two types of migrants there should be no confusion about "conflating" anything at all.

antiquity said:

Most of the jobs illegal aliens do are not crap jobs....construction, factory, landscaping etc are not crap jobs......in fact all illegal aliens do is drive down wages for people who came illegally before them or drive out the minority, mostly blacks and raise both the poverty level of legals and American citizens or raise the crime rate.

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By "crap" I mean all the jobs our current crop of young citizens think they are too good to get down and dirty to do...you know, kids being taught from kindergarten up that they are all "winners" and with no effort at all can become President?

Master PO said:

if america had a wall, and it was only say 10 miles long it would work, but a 1000 mile wall is not going to work

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The purpose of the wall isn't to prevent some guy from hiking across the border. It may discourage the random individuals a bit but the primary need for a wall is to prevent the trucks and vans full of drugs guns and human traffickers from driving across the border.

Captain Adverse said:

There has been a lot of debate surrounding how America should handle the issues of Latin American immigrants and Moslem refugees.

Those arguing for a liberal acceptance with open arms base their arguments on humanitarian principles and often quote "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" from the Statue of Liberty.

Those arguing against speak of terrorism, job competition, crime.

However, I think we need to recognize that we are actually dealing with two types of "huddled masses," Immigrants and Migrants. They are not the same thing, and I suggest we not not lump them together when developing public policy on immigration.

1. An immigrant is a person who desires to seek a new life in a society he admires and wishes to become a part of. His intention is to try to integrate and become an accepted member. This does not mean surrendering all cultural differences, but it does indicate a willingness to blend in as much as possible. I laud this group and have no problem with easing immigration laws as long as we insure all applicants properly follow immigration law.

2. A migrant is either fleeing a bad situation and merely looking for a new place to set up his old culture, or someone who is seeking temporary economic advantages with every intention of returning to the home country. Depending on which type we are dealing with I have some concerns with how we deal with them.

An example of economic migrants are those Mexicans who cross the border seeking seasonal work. They come, huddle together in cramped apartments, work wherever and however they can, save everything they can and then go back across the border and live on the money they earned here. That is their sole purpose. I have no problem with this group because they don't really take away any jobs that a typical American would want to do. They fill a niche, do their jobs, and try to stay under the radar until they can go home. I can accept easing work visa laws for this type of migrant.

However, Somalians, Syrians, and other refugees from Africa, Asia and the Middle East are a different story. As amply demonstrated both here (with Somali's) and in Europe (Moslems), they are simply attempting to transplant their entire culture from THERE to HERE. Think in terms of historical world migrations. The Goths, Huns, Hittites, Mongols, and let's not leave this out; Europeans who came to America. In every case the new culture will inevitably clash with the old and only one can win. This is my concern.

Now I don't think we need a "Great Wall" along any border. However, I do believe we need to differentiate between true immigrants and the two types of migrants, then prevent any influx of the cultural migrations. I don't believe it is a good idea to let cultural mass migrations succeed. IMO they need to learn to stay home and deal with the problems they created rather than be allowed to transplant those problems wholesale to our country. Immigration law should prevent their entrance. If you feel sorry for them, then we should create temporary refugee camps (perhaps on some of our Pacific Island possessions) and once we have found a new "homeland" that they can re-integrate into help them return to it.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

The ones who follow the law to get here into the US are the ones worth looking towards and helping. The ones that come here under the radar and snub their noses at the law by doing so need to be ostracized and every effort to making their lives here miserable. It's that simple for me. Doesn't matter to me if they're migrants or immigrants or some other label.

I support immirgartion.

Master PO said:

one question i have is why do people think the u.s. MUST take all these people in?

the government is instituted to secure rights, and it cannot do that if we open the doors.

a wall will not work, because whatever size wall you build, there is always a ladder or tunnel.

only by denying them work and benefits of any kind will they self deport.

Click to expand...

I can't agree with your claim that a wall would not work. Hadrian's Wall worked well, and so did the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China. So has the wall Israel built. Defensive walls are not meant to be impermeable barriers, but rather to allow a much smaller force to secure a border. Ladders don't work if there are defenders close enough to spot and stop anyone trying to use them. The same is true of tunnels, in open areas. In towns and cities, the problem of tunnels with entrances and exits hidden by structures could be solved by clearing a strip along the wall area so wide that a tunnel long enough to span between structures on opposite sides would be impractical.

matchlight said:

I can't agree with your claim that a wall would not work. Hadrian's Wall worked well, and so did the Berlin Wall and the Great Wall of China. So has the wall Israel built. Defensive walls are not meant to be impermeable barriers, but rather to allow a much smaller force to secure a border. Ladders don't work if there are defenders close enough to spot and stop anyone trying to use them. The same is true of tunnels, in open areas. In towns and cities, the problem of tunnels with entrances and exits hidden by structures could be solved by clearing a strip along the wall area so wide that a tunnel long enough to span between structures on opposite sides would be impractical.

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two walls were meant to keep people out while one was meant to keep people in.

as long as illegals are able to obtain work and benefits they will strive to come here by any means and once that wall is built, it will require money for it, and that requirement will grow.

i going to say i am not 100% correct it will to work, however from my reading of history with walls, they fail in time because they no longer serve the purpose they were intended.