Captured ISIL prisoners- where should they face trial?

Thrilla · Mar 18, 2016

Fearandloathing said:
That might happen yes, just as Nazi's tried to hide behind "I was only following orders". One last time, have some faith in the system. I understand how one could come to not trust the system in your country, but every time civilization has met violence, the civilized world has won. It wasn't JUST the US at the war crimes tribunals, it was international. WWII was a moral as well as a military and political one. Since then we seem to have become more like what we tried to destroy.

"civilization" won by applying superior violence,not by speaking kind words or affording kind legal treatment. ..... and no, we most certainly have NOT become what we tried to destroy... that's utterly insulting to the entire western world and a highly bigoted fairy tale of yours, certainly NOT fact.

ISIS is a lot like the folks "civilization" destroyed....including the matter of genocide... .except this time ,many are choosing not to rise up and destroy it, but sit back and pretend they will be nice if we treat them nice...as if that tactic has ever worked in the history of mankind.

eohrnberger · Mar 18, 2016

KevinKohler said:
I agree, but I think that we should have processed them much much much faster.

What's the great rush if these detainees are POWs? The hostilities haven't ceased, which is typically when POWs are released and return to their countries.

KevinKohler said:
The other issue we have with GITMO is that, with your typical POW, there are a great many witnesses (enemy soldiers) who witnessed their crime (fighting for the other team). A decent few of the people rotting away in GITMO were only ever SUSPECTED of POSSIBLY being involved with terrorist activities. That's pretty thin, especially when we are engaging in the act of extraditing american citizens there to be held indefinately.

If the detainees are POWs, then there is no need to return them until the end of hostilities. We've not even gotten there yet.

However, if they are illegal combatants, then yes, the military tribunals should have settled their cases far more quickly, and have dispensed judgment.

Thrilla · Mar 18, 2016

humbolt said:
And everybody captured claims they were coerced. You can believe that if you like. I don't. Yes. I'd need proof from every damn one who claims such a thing. It's not an innocent until proven guilty thing. It's the opposite because I won't unwittingly let one of those guys loose on an unsuspecting public.

I think you're both correct..... I think ISIS most certainly coerces folks, though differing tactics, into fighting for them.... and I think if faced with such a claim, the ISIS member would have to put up some very solid proof of that claim, absent said proof, the assumption he's lying would be a wise one.

humbolt · Mar 18, 2016

Fearandloathing said:
That might happen yes, just as Nazi's tried to hide behind "I was only following orders". One last time, have some faith in the system. I understand how one could come to not trust the system in your country, but every time civilization has met violence, the civilized world has won. It wasn't JUST the US at the war crimes tribunals, it was international. WWII was a moral as well as a military and political one. Since then we seem to have become more like what we tried to destroy.

I have faith that the requisite hand wringing will hamstring the whole affair if left to the usual suspects. I agree it should be an international effort. As far as I'm concerned, the American captured renounced his citizenship with his ISIS involvement. I'd be all for an international tribunal. I trust the civilized world. I am somewhat less enamored of our view here of the benefits of civilization. Seems our view revolves around personal convenience primarily.

MadLib · Mar 19, 2016

JANFU said:
Captured ISIL prisoners- where should they face trial?

Crimes committed in Iraq
Iraq’s judicial system is corrupt.
Witnesses in Iraq
Evidence is in Iraq- Not all but most
Yes the US does have laws to charge and prosecute.
As do many countries, not all but many do

US Citizen captured in Iraq – trial held where?
Trial in Iraq Yes
Extradited to US for trial - Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? No

Extradited to country of origin for trial - Yes

Extradited to country of origin for trial – No

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - Yes

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - No

Not sure where trial to be held

All foreign fighters should be extradited to their country of origin. This makes an example out of them for other potential recruits and takes a load off an Iraqi (and, hopefully at some point, Syrian) government that already has to deal with large numbers of native-born prisoners. Additionally, POWs are less likely to escape from a Western prison than an Iraqi one; an ISIS tactic at the beginning of the war was to stage mass prison breaks.

soot said:
My question would be, "Why are we not shooting ISIL prisoners on the battlefield"?

Assuming of course that we've already waterboarded them or done whatever else might be most expedient to get whatever information they might have out of them.

The answer is that people who know they're going to die if they surrender have no reason at all to lay down arms. Executing ISIS POWs would actually make it harder to defeat ISIS because would-be prisoners have new motivation to keep fighting.

joG · Mar 19, 2016

JANFU said:
Captured ISIL prisoners- where should they face trial?

Crimes committed in Iraq
Iraq’s judicial system is corrupt.
Witnesses in Iraq
Evidence is in Iraq- Not all but most
Yes the US does have laws to charge and prosecute.
As do many countries, not all but many do

US Citizen captured in Iraq – trial held where?
Trial in Iraq Yes
Extradited to US for trial - Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? No

Extradited to country of origin for trial - Yes

Extradited to country of origin for trial – No

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - Yes

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - No

Not sure where trial to be held

While I would not trust in any real attempt to truth and justice by the Iraqis, I would be skeptical of the availability of evidence enough robust in most cases to stand in a civil court in the USA.

RetiredNSmilin · Mar 19, 2016

What about in their own home countries?

joG · Mar 19, 2016

Fearandloathing said:
Because its a war crime.

Or do you endorse the same methods ISIS uses?

It is debatable, whether a law is legitimate, if it is not generally and robustly enforced. If it is not, it often defeats the purpose of laws by making the world less secure.

jamesrage · Mar 19, 2016

JANFU said:
Captured ISIL prisoners- where should they face trial?

Crimes committed in Iraq
Iraq’s judicial system is corrupt.
Witnesses in Iraq
Evidence is in Iraq- Not all but most
Yes the US does have laws to charge and prosecute.
As do many countries, not all but many do

US Citizen captured in Iraq – trial held where?
Trial in Iraq Yes
Extradited to US for trial - Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? No

Extradited to country of origin for trial - Yes

Extradited to country of origin for trial – No

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - Yes

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - No

Not sure where trial to be held

They should face trial in Iraq and punished by the Iraqi justice system. Their crimes are commit in Iraqi against the Iraqis, not the American people.

Fearandloathing · Mar 19, 2016

joG said:
It is debatable, whether a law is legitimate, if it is not generally and robustly enforced. If it is not, it often defeats the purpose of laws by making the world less secure.

Please give me three examples where any law made the world more unsafe.

KevinKohler · Mar 19, 2016

Grand Mal said:
That, or summarily kill them. Which do you want?
Me, I wouldn't take any prisoners but if we're assuming the exist, what would you do with them?

Try them as POWs caught in the act of committing war crimes.

JANFU · Mar 19, 2016

Thrilla said:
I think you're both correct..... I think ISIS most certainly coerces folks, though differing tactics, into fighting for them.... and I think if faced with such a claim, the ISIS member would have to put up some very solid proof of that claim, absent said proof, the assumption he's lying would be a wise one.

Then you have the technocrats- Up til sometime last year, the Iraqi Govt was still paying their salaries, in ISIL controlled areas.

JANFU · Mar 19, 2016

KevinKohler said:
Try them as POWs caught in the act of committing war crimes.

POW can be tried, yes. POW's are not released until the end of hostilities

KevinKohler · Mar 19, 2016

Fearandloathing said:
Please give me three examples where any law made the world more unsafe.

Well, I'm not disagreeing with the gist of what you're getting at...BUT....I don't want to derail the thread...so, I'll just say, I could easily list three examples of laws made that make the world less safe...

JANFU · Mar 19, 2016

Thrilla said:
it's not a matter of giving respect.. it's a matter of being factual.

ISIS members are uniformed and wear identifiable insignia...they are , by definition, members of the armed forces of a belligerent party to a conflict...... and it does NOT matter if the authority that commands them is recognized as a state or legitimate authority.

I may be wrong, but under present law it does. So are new laws required? At the International level? Such as and or comparable to the Geneva Convention?

an insurgent is a person who rises up to forcibly oppose a lawful authority/government.... a soldier is a person who is a member of an organized armed force....

That description applies to ISIL, AQ and a host of others. Yes - No??

Risky Thicket · Mar 19, 2016

soot said:
My question would be, "Why are we not shooting ISIL prisoners on the battlefield"?

Assuming of course that we've already waterboarded them or done whatever else might be most expedient to get whatever information they might have out of them.

Damn right! But first they should be sexually abused by gay black Democrats and then their houses should be sold at exorbitant prices to Mexicans.

Thrilla · Mar 19, 2016

JANFU said:
I may be wrong, but under present law it does. So are new laws required? At the International level? Such as and or comparable to the Geneva Convention?

no, under present "law" , it doesn't...but it's not really a law per say.. it's the Geneva conventions.

as to whether we need news laws... i dunno.. .i'm not a big fan of the Geneva conventions myself, and I don't really see a need for more rules of war....I really don't see a need to establish rules of war at all.
realistically speaking, there is one law in war.... win.
losers get punished, even by ex post facto law( nuremburg)... winners get parades.

That description applies to ISIL, AQ and a host of others. Yes - No??

ISIL members are soldiers... AQ are terrorists, and sometimes insurgents....Iraqi civilians fighting the established government are insurgents.

Thrilla · Mar 19, 2016

Risky Thicket said:
Damn right! But first they should be sexually abused by gay black Democrats and then their houses should be sold at exorbitant prices to Mexicans.

I like your style....

JANFU · Mar 20, 2016

Thrilla said:
no, under present "law" , it doesn't...but it's not really a law per say.. it's the Geneva conventions.

as to whether we need news laws... i dunno.. .i'm not a big fan of the Geneva conventions myself, and I don't really see a need for more rules of war....I really don't see a need to establish rules of war at all.
realistically speaking, there is one law in war.... win.
losers get punished, even by ex post facto law( nuremburg)... winners get parades.

ISIL members are soldiers... AQ are terrorists, and sometimes insurgents....Iraqi civilians fighting the established government are insurgents.

Myself, I support the conventions and other rules/laws of war. Why throw them out because of ISIL –AQ and such?

Thrilla · Mar 20, 2016

JANFU said:
Myself, I support the conventions and other rules/laws of war. Why throw them out because of ISIL –AQ and such?

well, i'm not on a campaign to throw them out or anything... but my opinion on rules of war has literally nothing to do with AQ or ISIS.... though they do provide examples to substantiate my opinions.

my opinion is based on the very nature of war, and the reality that rules are ignored at will... and only the loser will be held accountable to them.
I'm also of the opinion that sanitizing warfare through gentlemens agreements ( and technology, for that matter)... perpetuates warfare.

Captured ISIL prisoners- where should they face trial?

US Citizen captured in Iraq – trial held where?

Us Citizen -Trial in Iraq Yes

US Citizen- Extradited to US for trial - Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? Yes

Other foreign nationals -Trial in Iraq? No

Extradited to country of origin for trial - Yes

Extradited to country of origin for trial – No

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - Yes

Case by case basis, decided by Iraqi’s - No

Not sure where trial to be held

Thrilla

eohrnberger

Thrilla

humbolt

MadLib

monstrous vermin

joG

RetiredNSmilin

joG

jamesrage

Fearandloathing

How long is now?

KevinKohler

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

KevinKohler

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

Risky Thicket

Sewer Rat

Thrilla

Thrilla

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream

Thrilla