Is it possible to be "unintentionally" racist?

X Factor said:

While I'll agree that it is important to be cognizant of potential racism in ourselves and others, it can also be counter productive to constantly tell people just how racist they are in the absence of any actual evidence. Basically it's like saying, "Ok, you don't and haven't exhibited any actions or speech that would indicate that you're racist but it doesn't matter, you are without realizing it." Seriously, if racism is this huge moral failing, it sure doesn't seem right to label someone racist with nothing to support the judgment. It's like putting the burden of proof on the defendant while at the same time telling the defendant that there's no possible way to plead innocence.

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I think that racism is used as too harsh of an accusation.

If you call someone a racist, it is such a strong insult that you give them no choice but to deny the allegation- you breakdown communication and polarize the discussion.

I don't really have a solution there. I've talked about this before but, i think of racism as a large spectrum. I think it's completely unfair to consider unintentional racism anywhere near the same as intentional racism. History reminds us of the horrors of intentional racism, so that's generally what we associate with the term.

I prefer to phrase it to say "that kind of thinking can lend itself to stereotypes that can be destructive," because it avoids the term 'racism' but has a better chance of getting the point across. I don't want to make someone feel bad, but i still want to help people understand how the things they say may be interpreted in the wrong way.

Absentglare said:

I think that racism is used as too harsh of an accusation.

If you call someone a racist, it is such a strong insult that you give them no choice but to deny the allegation- you breakdown communication and polarize the discussion.

I don't really have a solution there. I've talked about this before but, i think of racism as a large spectrum. I think it's completely unfair to consider unintentional racism anywhere near the same as intentional racism. History reminds us of the horrors of intentional racism, so that's generally what we associate with the term.

I prefer to phrase it to say "that kind of thinking can lend itself to stereotypes that can be destructive," because it avoids the term 'racism' but has a better chance of getting the point across. I don't want to make someone feel bad, but i still want to help people understand how the things they say may be interpreted in the wrong way.

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what if you laughed and called them a racist right back? maybe call them a pole smoker too

X Factor said:

I mean racism in the only way it can be applied to individual people. Essentially a belief or attitude where you draw typically negative conclusions about someone based on nothing other than their race.

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That is far from the only definition of racism that can be applied to individual people(I prefer a different one), but it is certainly a workable definition. Based on that definition, then yes, it is possible to be unintentionally racist.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think what you're asking me is if something can be "bad" without being racist. Of course it can. There's all sorts of "bad" out there that's completely unrelated to racism.

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Well, that wa not quite what I am asking. To use a made up example: if you treat a black guy poorly, is it worse if you do it because of racism? To my mind, no, it isn't.

Frankly I think it depends on how you define things.

I think it is possible to react negatively (or positively) towards people based on prejudices you are not aware you have.

If that general statement includes unintentional racism, then the answer to your question is clear.

X Factor said:

Oh, I don't think a Stormfronter denying they're racist makes their overt racism any less intentional - no matter how they spin it or justify it. They may believe they're justified in their racism but they're still well aware of how they feel about minorities.

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how is it any different from you being racist and denying it?

Anyone who believes in the long discredited idea that the concept of 'race' has some scientific validity is, I suppose, a 'racist' by definition. It is sad that the US is still mired in confusion and hostility brought about by a false premise. Americans! Study genetics! Or, as you might phrase it 'Get Real'!

dimensionallava said:

how is it any different from you being racist and denying it?

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Just so I'm clear, you're calling me a racist?

People are more prejudiced than racist, as most normal thinking people do not consider their race more superior to any other race.

Prejudiced on the other hand, can develop over a period of time by individual perception.

I have have had to slap myself a few times over the years for some of my own thoughts and practices.

X Factor said:

Just so I'm clear, you're calling me a racist?

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I wasn't just then..... but this is obviously about the fact that youve been called racist before isn't it? didn't you start another thread a few weeks ago about how much you hate, being called racist all the time?

So when someone accuses you of being racist and you deny it, how is that any different then when someone from stormfront gets accused of racism and denies it? More importantly, even if their is a difference how are the people who are listening to you, supposed to know the difference?

X Factor said:

I'm seeing a fairly common argument that it, basically, doesn't even really matter what you actually say, do and think, you could be racist and not even know it. Honestly, I don't buy that. I think you can only be responsible for your thoughts/speech/actions, not for things that you're not even aware of. It sometimes seems that some folks are downright desperate to keep racial division about as deep and wide as possible, and now that it's gotten to the point where it's widely understood that racism is bad, there seems to be the need to open up a new front and it's one that can't really be defended against because, even if you succeed in convincing others that you're in no way racist, it doesn't matter, you could be guilty anyway, you simply don't know it.

So, my rant aside, is "unintentional" racism possible?

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You are indeed only responsible for your thoughts, speech, and actions. However, sometimes thoughts, speech, and actions are based on racial stereotypes or the maintenance of one's own standing that one does not realize are racially motivated.

We all perform many thoughts, speeches, and actions that are automatic.

It is not about being "guilty." It is about assessing one's own automatic actions for the purpose of self- and social improvement. Anyone of any self-awareness should be doing this on an on-going basis on a variety of different life subjects, from how they handle stress to how they treat society.

I've made substantial progress on understanding these sorts of topics and my own automatic actions in the last several years. Feels great. So many things make better sense, I'm a more balanced and aware person, and more able to actually make progress on something I care about. What's there to be guilty over?

Am I done? Nope. I'm aware of the stuff that's still there. I pick it off as I get around to it, juxtaposed against all the other stuff I tinker with over time about how I do life. I'm a human being, and much of my learning on how I look at life, social and personal, took place while I was still in diapers. Other aspects are just an unfortunate reality of the fact that our brains learn by accident just as much as they do by intent. I have no reason to feel guilty that my brain is just trying to make sense of the world, and unlearning incorrect things takes time and dedication. Rather, I feel good about being the sort of person who is always willing to put in that time and dedication, and have gotten good enough at it that I can make big changes in short periods once I have decided the problem is real, even with very deeply-driven instincts. I'm stronger than any automatically triggered flaw I may have, personal or social, as long as I can see it. That's cool.

If you ever think you're done, then you are claiming to be the only perfect human being to ever exist. I don't buy it.

It's possible to be unintentionally prejudice. There's a level of intent needed for racism in my opinion that something truly "Unintentional" would not qualify.

X Factor said:

I'm seeing a fairly common argument that it, basically, doesn't even really matter what you actually say, do and think, you could be racist and not even know it. Honestly, I don't buy that. I think you can only be responsible for your thoughts/speech/actions, not for things that you're not even aware of. It sometimes seems that some folks are downright desperate to keep racial division about as deep and wide as possible, and now that it's gotten to the point where it's widely understood that racism is bad, there seems to be the need to open up a new front and it's one that can't really be defended against because, even if you succeed in convincing others that you're in no way racist, it doesn't matter, you could be guilty anyway, you simply don't know it.

So, my rant aside, is "unintentional" racism possible?

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Voted other.
I'd say that often no but sometimes yes.

The definition outlines racism as a belief.
So I guess sometimes people can think their race is superior to another, without knowing it's racism, but often I think not.
Racism as a word is used similarly to Nazi, comparisons to Hitler, etc.
It's so poorly, widely and loosely used, it should be included in Godwins Law now.

I don't think it's possible to be unintentionally racist.

Because, if you don't know -- the act/thought isn't racist. It just is.

But, I think it's possible that folks excuse racist acts. For example, those who refused to vote for Obama, ONLY because he is black, made a racist decision. On the flip side, those who voted for him BECAUSE he is black, also made a racist decision.

X Factor said:

Just so I'm clear, you're calling me a racist?

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Sometimes, when some people call you racist, just don't deny it.
It's not worth it and you're falling for their bait.

X Factor said:

So, my rant aside, is "unintentional" racism possible?

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it might be. i would make sure you get worked up over it and bend yourself into a pretzel in order to avoid being called a racist (by some other person who is probably the racist he accuses you of being)

Absentglare said:

I think that racism is used as too harsh of an accusation.

If you call someone a racist, it is such a strong insult that you give them no choice but to deny the allegation- you breakdown communication and polarize the discussion.

I don't really have a solution there. I've talked about this before but, i think of racism as a large spectrum. I think it's completely unfair to consider unintentional racism anywhere near the same as intentional racism. History reminds us of the horrors of intentional racism, so that's generally what we associate with the term.

I prefer to phrase it to say "that kind of thinking can lend itself to stereotypes that can be destructive," because it avoids the term 'racism' but has a better chance of getting the point across. I don't want to make someone feel bad, but i still want to help people understand how the things they say may be interpreted in the wrong way.

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Charges of racism and/or racist have become a figurative club with which to beat people into silence. Generally to further the accuser's own desired agenda with as little resistance as possible.

Harry Guerrilla said:

Sometimes, when some people call you racist, just don't deny it.
It's not worth it and you're falling for their bait.

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It's all good, Harry. I don't really care if he thinks so. I mainly just wanted to be clear that I wasn't misinterpreting his comment because I actually find it useful to my point. I bet he could no way point to any specific thing I've said that would back his conclusion that I'm racist but it doesn't matter. I could post pics of me traveling back in history to become a devoted MLK follower but he could still tell me that that's all well and good but I'm still racist without being aware of it. That's my whole point. It's an allegation of guilt with no possible defense.

HowardBThiname said:

I don't think it's possible to be unintentionally racist.

Because, if you don't know -- the act/thought isn't racist. It just is.

But, I think it's possible that folks excuse racist acts. For example, those who refused to vote for Obama, ONLY because he is black, made a racist decision. On the flip side, those who voted for him BECAUSE he is black, also made a racist decision.

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are you saying ~90% of blacks are racist? because my university told me that minority cannot be racist.

Office Instance:
I have a black friend at work and she said something about workers on one side of the "wall" (meaning production) versus this side of the "wall" (meaning program/admin staff).
Without even thinking, I made the joking and smartassed statement "Oh sure, *Insert Name Here*, just segregate us..."
The room went quiet, I went red, and my boss at the time said "So, why don't we talk about this new project..."

It was stupid and completely accidental. It was stupider even that we all thought about it that way and it sucked the humor out of a completely innocent conversation.
No friendship was tarnished or bruised, we are still great friends have been since it happened over a year ago now, it was a fleeting unfortunate moment.

It's kind of like saying that a jewish student is having issues concentrating in class and someone saying that maybe we should send him to concentration camp.....................

Captain Adverse said:

So no, I don't think there is really any such thing as unintentional racism. It's just some have-nots trying to find something or someone to blame for their personal failures.

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I disagree.

Class based prejudices can be very closely, but not entirely linked to race / ethnicity in the minds of some. This leads to a line of thought similar to: "No, I am not rascist as I dont dislike all whites, blacks, hispanics etc- I just dislike the 95% who do not perfectly reflect my socio economic class." Followed by: After all, there are a few extreme people from my own race that I reject for the same reasons."

I currently know two people like this. Both very closely assosciate productvity and over all value to the community with their socio economic group; which in turn is closely linked to being white.

The linkage described above causes them to obviously reject almost all people in the "other" racial categories as being inherently inferior. In contrast, almost all fellow whites are presumed to be "valuable"- unless they prove otherwise as individuals. Though neither one is a dogmatic rascist, both are de facto rascist on a day to day basis.

Ntharotep said:

Office Instance:
I have a black friend at work and she said something about workers on one side of the "wall" (meaning production) versus this side of the "wall" (meaning program/admin staff).
Without even thinking, I made the joking and smartassed statement "Oh sure, *Insert Name Here*, just segregate us..."
The room went quiet, I went red, and my boss at the time said "So, why don't we talk about this new project..."

It was stupid and completely accidental. It was stupider even that we all thought about it that way and it sucked the humor out of a completely innocent conversation.
No friendship was tarnished or bruised, we are still great friends have been since it happened over a year ago now, it was a fleeting unfortunate moment.

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Language evolves over time, and words and phrases take on new meaning, but technically your use of the word "segregation" was correct... according to the dictionary, albeit not "correct" for common use in today's world.

Another example is the word "discriminate/discrimination". It's a perfectly valid word, and is something that we ALL do every single day. Granted, common use in today's world gives it a negative social understanding, but if you think about it you and I discriminate simply by choosing one thing for lunch over another.

lb_on_teh_cb said:

are you saying ~90% of blacks are racist? because my university told me that minority cannot be racist.

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Well, I'm not saying that -- exactly -- but if they voted for Obama SOLELY because he was black - that was a racist vote.

On the flip side, those who refused to vote for him based on color, were also guilty of racism.

radcen said:

Charges of racism and/or racist have become a figurative club with which to beat people into silence. Generally to further the accuser's own desired agenda with as little resistance as possible.

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Sure, there are people who use accusatory talking points in an attempt to bludgeon their opponent into silence.

Ever heard people call liberals nazi/fascist/communist ?

Redress said:

That is far from the only definition of racism that can be applied to individual people(I prefer a different one), but it is certainly a workable definition. Based on that definition, then yes, it is possible to be unintentionally racist.



Well, that wa not quite what I am asking. To use a made up example: if you treat a black guy poorly, is it worse if you do it because of racism? To my mind, no, it isn't.

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Ok; I understand your question to be whether something that could be attributed to racism is any less bad even if we assume that it has nothing to do with racism. Like in the case of the veteran who was mugged but some black kids. Whether they did it out of racist motives or not, the result for the victim is the exactly the same. I think what you're also telling me is that, just because you may not believe something is racist, doesn't mean you're defending it or saying it's ok. Have I understood you correctly?