Bernie Sanders- A British Comparrison

Jack of Devon said:

I apologise as I suspect this topic has, one way or another, been done to death. However, my excuse is that I'm new to the Forum and at least I hope to bring a British perspective to the debate. My second apology is to confess that I am English, for which I can offer no excuse.

I am intrigued by the comparisons between the leader of our Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, and your Bernie Sanders. Both are men of a certain age, who have been around largely unnoticed for a long time, and became unlikely candidates to lead their party. They are also both not particularly media friendly and refuse to enter into personal attacks.

When Corbyn stood as a candidate here, he was ridiculed as a throw back to the old left wing days of the Labour Party and written off as a serious contender. What happened was that 100's of thousands of people joined the Labour Party to vote for him in the leadership contest. He re radicalised old time lefties and captured the imagination of a disillusioned youth. The result was that he ended up with the largest mandate from its members that any Labour leader has had in its history.

I know the comparison is slightly crude, as Britain has some tradition of democratic socialism and and the Labour Party has in its distant past elected left wing leaders, but my question to you my friends is to what extent is there really a feeling over there that Bernie can get the Democratic nomination?

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One other intresting question is if he can not only win but also change the political system. That as I understand it UK just like my country Sweden have more membership based political parties that atleast in theory members also can change the policies of the party and the head of the party have to follow party decisions. Their Corbyn have both increase the numbers of members in Labour but also got more members involved in party politics. While as I understand it USA have a more campaign based parties. That USA have a lot of people involved in campaing work ecpecially for the presidental election. But after the election the president and other elected have a personal mandate and can in theory do what they want without listen to the members and the party. But as I understand it will Bernie will sort of change that if he get elected. That he also want to campaign for specific issues between elections and hopefully get millions of people involved. As a non american I don't know if it's feassible but atleast it sounds intersting.

Jack of Devon said:

They must have left that leaflet out of my Fabian Society membership pack.

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Of course they did. Have you researched the Fabians? [the polite road to Communism]

A common view in the US is that Sanders is a good man, honest and reliable. Even those who would not vote for him like him. In England (and perhaps even in Scotland) Corbyn is seen as a blithering idiot, the self-declared friend of Irish and Islamic terrorists, more a Communist than a socialist. Even those who will continue o vote Labour mostly view Corbyn with contempt.

Sweden said:

A common view in the US is that Sanders is a good man, honest and reliable. Even those who would not vote for him like him. In England (and perhaps even in Scotland) Corbyn is seen as a blithering idiot, the self-declared friend of Irish and Islamic terrorists, more a Communist than a socialist. Even those who will continue o vote Labour mostly view Corbyn with contempt.

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Agreed, for all his faults, Sanders apparent sincerity commands respect.

On the claims of Corbyn, i can neither confirm nor deny.

WCH said:

Of course they did. Have you researched the Fabians? [the polite road to Communism]

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Unless I read him wrongly, Jack is a Fabian Society member who does not recognise your flippant misrepresentation of it.

Manc Skipper said:

Unless I read him wrongly, Jack is a Fabian Society member who does not recognise your flippant misrepresentation of it.

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This '"flippant" ?

The Fabian Society is a British socialist organisation whose purpose is to advance the principles of socialism via gradualist and reformist effort in democracies, rather than by revolutionary overthrow.

This has been a slow creeping disease in this country for some time. Sanders wants to unleash the revolution wholeheartedly.

If Jack is a Fabian, I guarantee he doesn't like the way they're portrayed.

Jack of Devon said:

I apologise as I suspect this topic has, one way or another, been done to death. However, my excuse is that I'm new to the Forum and at least I hope to bring a British perspective to the debate. My second apology is to confess that I am English, for which I can offer no excuse.

I am intrigued by the comparisons between the leader of our Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, and your Bernie Sanders. Both are men of a certain age, who have been around largely unnoticed for a long time, and became unlikely candidates to lead their party. They are also both not particularly media friendly and refuse to enter into personal attacks.

When Corbyn stood as a candidate here, he was ridiculed as a throw back to the old left wing days of the Labour Party and written off as a serious contender. What happened was that 100's of thousands of people joined the Labour Party to vote for him in the leadership contest. He re radicalised old time lefties and captured the imagination of a disillusioned youth. The result was that he ended up with the largest mandate from its members that any Labour leader has had in its history.

I know the comparison is slightly crude, as Britain has some tradition of democratic socialism and and the Labour Party has in its distant past elected left wing leaders, but my question to you my friends is to what extent is there really a feeling over there that Bernie can get the Democratic nomination?

Click to expand...

I think he has does actually have a chance. Sanders I mean. I don't support much of his politics but I respect his honesty and transparency. But If I had to pick between him and Hillary Clinton I would pick Bernie for sure. with him at least you know what your getting and not just a bunch of lies.

WCH said:

This '"flippant" ?

The Fabian Society is a British socialist organisation whose purpose is to advance the principles of socialism via gradualist and reformist effort in democracies, rather than by revolutionary overthrow.

This has been a slow creeping disease in this country for some time. Sanders wants to unleash the revolution wholeheartedly.

If Jack is a Fabian, I guarantee he doesn't like the way they're portrayed.

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Or misrepresented. They're the oldest "think-tank" in Britain.

Sweden said:

A common view in the US is that Sanders is a good man, honest and reliable. Even those who would not vote for him like him. In England (and perhaps even in Scotland) Corbyn is seen as a blithering idiot, the self-declared friend of Irish and Islamic terrorists, more a Communist than a socialist. Even those who will continue o vote Labour mostly view Corbyn with contempt.

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I wouldn't agree with that analysis of how he's viewed in Britain. Whilst he divides opinion, he's certainly not considered to be a blithering idiot or with contempt.

Jack of Devon said:

I apologise as I suspect this topic has, one way or another, been done to death. However, my excuse is that I'm new to the Forum and at least I hope to bring a British perspective to the debate. My second apology is to confess that I am English, for which I can offer no excuse.

I am intrigued by the comparisons between the leader of our Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, and your Bernie Sanders. Both are men of a certain age, who have been around largely unnoticed for a long time, and became unlikely candidates to lead their party. They are also both not particularly media friendly and refuse to enter into personal attacks.

When Corbyn stood as a candidate here, he was ridiculed as a throw back to the old left wing days of the Labour Party and written off as a serious contender. What happened was that 100's of thousands of people joined the Labour Party to vote for him in the leadership contest. He re radicalised old time lefties and captured the imagination of a disillusioned youth. The result was that he ended up with the largest mandate from its members that any Labour leader has had in its history.

I know the comparison is slightly crude, as Britain has some tradition of democratic socialism and and the Labour Party has in its distant past elected left wing leaders, but my question to you my friends is to what extent is there really a feeling over there that Bernie can get the Democratic nomination?

Click to expand...

I definitely see the similarity. Interesting, that their values and popularity are so similar in scope and occurring at almost the same time. The US seems to have a way of following whatever the Mother Country does...so, I suppose if winning the election can happen for Jeremy Corbyn, then it could happen for Sanders as well.

Btw, is Jeremy Corbyn related to Piers Corbyn?

Moot said:

I definitely see the similarity. Interesting, that their values and popularity are so similar in scope and occurring at almost the same time. The US seems to have a way of following whatever the Mother Country does...so, I suppose if winning the election can happen for Jeremy Corbyn, then it could happen for Sanders as well.

Btw, is Jeremy Corbyn related to Piers Corbyn?

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Corbyn 'winning the election'. His leadership position has dragged the Labour party down in the polls to a very low percentage and he, personally, polls even worse than his party. About 90% of Labour MPs say - some privately but many openly - that with Corbyn they have no hope of winning an election. A view more than amply confirmed by heir plunging polling.

Jack of Devon said:

I wouldn't agree with that analysis of how he's viewed in Britain. Whilst he divides opinion, he's certainly not considered to be a blithering idiot or with contempt.

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How can you possibly believe that Jack? Even within his party he relies on Momentum to retain any semblance of control. For new readers: Momentum members are entryists; far left, farthest left and ultra left, who have moved from their goupuscles into the already moribund Labour party to destroy it from within.

Manc Skipper said:

Or misrepresented. They're the oldest "think-tank" in Britain.

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Socialist think tank. I know all about them. They have influence here also.

From 2008;

"In a 1971 book called Rules for Radicals, (Saul) Alinsky scolded the Sixties Left for scaring off potential converts in Middle America. True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism, Alinsky taught. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within...

Alinsky's crowning achievement was his recruitment of a young high school student named Hillary Rodham (later Clinton). She met Alinsky through a radical church group. Hillary wrote an analysis of Alinsky's methods for her senior thesis at Wellesley College. They remained friends until Alinsky's death in 1972...

Trained by Alinsky's Industrial Areas Foundation, (Barack) Obama spent years teaching workshops on the Alinsky method. In 1985 he began a four-year stint as a community organizer in Chicago, working for an Alinskyite group called the Developing Communities Project. Later, he worked with ACORN and its offshoot Project Vote, both creations of the Alinsky network."

-- Richard Poe

This stealth technique has been practiced by the Fabian Socialists for over a century, and their utopia is almost at hand. The engineered "Hooverian" economic crisis we are now facing will pave the way for the new "Rooseveltian" collectivist dictatorship -- run by the same oligarchs that created the crisis to begin with. This season, Bush is playing the role of Hoover while Hillary is slated to play the role of Roosevelt with some psychic help from Eleanor's ghost.

George Bernard Shaw, one of the Fabian 's founders, called Lenin the "greatest Fabian of them all" and in a speech he made in Moscow in 1931 said:

"It is a real comfort to me, an old man, to be able to step into my grave with the knowledge that the civilization of the world will be saved ... it is here in Russia that I have actually been convinced that the new Communist system is capable of leading mankind out of its present crisis, and saving it from complete anarchy and ruin."

Basically they are Communist wanna-bes who are too cowardly to start a revolution.

SocialD said:

I think he has does actually have a chance. Sanders I mean. I don't support much of his politics but I respect his honesty and transparency. But If I had to pick between him and Hillary Clinton I would pick Bernie for sure. with him at least you know what your getting and not just a bunch of lies.

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Sanders hasn't been very honest at all.

Sweden said:

How can you possibly believe that Jack? Even within his party he relies on Momentum to retain any semblance of control. For new readers: Momentum members are entryists; far left, farthest left and ultra left, who have moved from their goupuscles into the already moribund Labour party to destroy it from within.

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Thanks Sweden. I think I've got your take on my initial question, although I haven't the faintest idea what a goupuscle is. I'm guessing from your tone it's not a good thing.

WCH said:

This '"flippant" ?

The Fabian Society is a British socialist organisation whose purpose is to advance the principles of socialism via gradualist and reformist effort in democracies, rather than by revolutionary overthrow.

This has been a slow creeping disease in this country for some time. Sanders wants to unleash the revolution wholeheartedly.

If Jack is a Fabian, I guarantee he doesn't like the way they're portrayed.

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Yes, I am a Fabian member. It seems to me to be a very broad church, which includes MP's from the right of the Labour Party such as Hilary Benn, through to some left wing MP's like Jeremy Corbyn. The hard left in Britain would largely dismiss the Society as a talking shop and view Fabians as a bunch of academics and wannabe intellectuals, with no real influence. You are certainly correct WCH that some of the views of its founders are a bit controversial.

Jack of Devon said:

I might agree with that, but the question is can BS get the Democrat nomination?

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Oh boy, that's gonna catch on. I can hear the republicans at this forum itching to use it.

Jack of Devon said:

... but my question to you my friends is to what extent is there really a feeling over there that Bernie can get the Democratic nomination?

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I am not in America so your question is not addressed to me but I would say that the people in England are well-informed about American politics. You know that Americans and their media are very conservative. For this reason, Bernard Sanders was largely ignored and everyone assumed that Hillary Clinton would get the Democratic party nomination. It must have been quite a shock to the Clintons and the media there when Sanders, like Jeremy Corbyn, came from being a back marker to being within a nose of Hillary Clinton in Iowa and then passing her in New Hampshire. Sanders best hope is that Clinton is not liked by Democrats in all demographics and while he is up against a party machine and big money, Hillary's unpopularity might just help him get the nomination but he has a tough battle. What else that is in his favor are the extreme right conservative types who are up for the Republican nomination. None of them have appeal to moderate voters. Best of all for Sanders would be the clown, Donald Trump to get the nomination of the Republican party. Sanders would be a shoe-in to the White House then.

Jack of Devon said:

Thanks Sweden. I think I've got your take on my initial question, although I haven't the faintest idea what a goupuscle is. I'm guessing from your tone it's not a good thing.

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The far left split and divide and groups become ever smaller. For me a goupuscle is a very small typo from something that may once have been a groupuscule. These small groups tend to hate each other. Remember Life of Brian and the bitter enmity between the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea?

It is only a matter of time before Momentum, Corbyn's stormtroopers who are busy taking over the Labour party,, disintegrate into a thousand - what shall we call them? Groupuscules?

(You will have already understood that enemies of socialism regard Corbyn as a good thing and hope that he keeps Labour unelectable for several decades).

Sweden said:

The far left split and divide and groups become ever smaller. For me a goupuscle is a very small typo from something that may once have been a groupuscule. These small groups tend to hate each other. Remember Life of Brian and the bitter enmity between the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea?

It is only a matter of time before Momentum, Corbyn's stormtroopers who are busy taking over the Labour party,, disintegrate into a thousand - what shall we call them? Groupuscules?

(You will have already understood that enemies of socialism regard Corbyn as a good thing and hope that he keeps Labour unelectable for several decades).

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You're absolutely right the Judean People's Front/ People's Front of Judea thing has always cursed the left. I remember when I was politically active in the 80's you had the choice of joining a whole host of left wing groups most of whom seemed to hate each other more than they did the Tories.

You're also correct that JC doesn't have the backing of a majority of Labour MPs and a good number are openly hostile to him. On the other hand he has the full support of a vast majority of an ever growing membership. The other interesting development is how the Conservative hierarchy are now trying to capture the old Blairite middle ground- I suspect with the Doctors' strike, Jeremy Hunt will be sacrificed. I don't know how this will all play out leading up to the next election, but for a political geek like me, it's fascinating stuff.

Jack of Devon said:

Yes, I am a Fabian member. It seems to me to be a very broad church, which includes MP's from the right of the Labour Party such as Hilary Benn, through to some left wing MP's like Jeremy Corbyn. The hard left in Britain would largely dismiss the Society as a talking shop and view Fabians as a bunch of academics and wannabe intellectuals, with no real influence. You are certainly correct WCH that some of the views of its founders are a bit controversial.

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Thank you for your honesty. Unfortunately we here in the States are moving in another direction....away from our Founders.