Is Bernie Getting Screwed By The Democratic Establishment?

Surrealistik said:

Further, Bernie has cited plans for paying for his policies (such as the transactions tax with regards to tuition free public college) which aren't nearly as expensive as a lot of right wing fearmongers would like to pretend.

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Unfortunately nearly all of Bernie's plans amount to little more than promises he would have zero capability of keeping if elected President. I like a lot of his principles, but they aren't worth anything as idle ideas. What does the man have without them that Hillary doesn't have in abundance?

Napoleon said:

Unfortunately nearly all of Bernie's plans amount to little more than promises he would have zero capability of keeping if elected President. I like a lot of his principles, but they aren't worth anything as idle ideas. What does the man have without them that Hillary doesn't have in abundance?

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Integrity?

Don't know, don't much care.

Whomever the Dems put forward will suck.

And whomever the Reps put forward will be hideous.


Basically, America is ****ed until at least 2020.

digsbe said:

Hillary will get the DNC nomination. I think the DNC supports here and will play as dirty as they need to be in order to rubber stamp her as the party nominee. She's been scheming for this ever since she lost to Obama.

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She is going to have the same result as in 2008.

She has no message. As best as I can tell, her message is that it is her turn to be the nominee.

Surrealistik said:

And what of the Commonwealth? Northern Europe? Japan?

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They all tax you to death and Americans prefer to spend their money as they see fit not as the government sees fit.

I would say that the DNC, in relation to Bernie, made probably one critical error. With the 'hacking' scandal, the DNC made the foolish error of penalizing an entire campaign that has the only meaningful counter to Hillary Clinton's campaign. If one wants to pull out the loonie-bin tag or the "outsider" tag in order to dismiss the damage that decision had for the Democratic Party's internal politics, it won't fly. The campaign isn't comparable to Ron Paul's campaign because of the success the Sanders' campaign had, so any decision to effectively lock out the 2nd place challenger's staff from its own data and its ability to run an effective ground campaign just boggles my mind. Talk about alienating progressives, greens, and democratic socialists alike!

That being said, Bernie Sanders' campaign, on the whole, was not being "screwed" by the establishment. Sanders' campaign mostly embodies self-imposed victimhood (something that is also needed for his campaign to work). The simple reality is that a protest candidate frequently never has the endorsement of the ranking membership of a Party. There's plenty of problems within the DNC itself that do not indicate that Sanders is being treated terribly. Rather, the DNC has mostly harmed itself in not creating a robust party apparatus and a back bench of leaders.

Hillary became virtually the most endorsed candidate in recent memory, she lacked meaningful challengers within her party (something that comes with being in office for 2 terms and the DNC's woeful nurturing of local and state leadership), and wasn't running the dreaded s-word candidacy (which hasn't been openly used to any meaningful degree since 1912, which was over a century ago). Why should the Sanders campaign be surprised that they aren't exactly taking first place? They are the protest campaign and a protest campaign embracing, with drooling arms, the socialism tag. Of course he's not going to win. That's a given. His victory isn't being stolen.

But the campaign has succeeded in numerous ways by driving the definition of liberalism, from the 90's post-war consensus model (of which Hillary was not a 'moderate,' but a strident liberal for the time) back to McGovernism. Only in that world could you turn Hillary Clinton, who was always more to the Left than her husband and her husband was meaningfully to the Left of the Blue Dogs, into a "moderate." You had two choices there: Sanders or Warren. The latter, though needing to run for 2016 if she is ever to run in her lifetime, chose not to. That left Sanders and he has has thus far made sure Hillary gives the Warren-Sanders wing of the Party plenty of bones for her run at a 3rd consecutive Democratic Party administration.

Not sure how this is actually a question.....

It's crystal clear that he is getting the short straw. Debbie Wasserman- Schultz is in charge of scheduling debates, and she clearly schedules them on nights where viewership is going to be extremely low. She is a clear Hillary fawn, and is a device meant to accelerate a coronation. Bernie and O'Malley might just be the only 2 people left on earth who naively think this primary hasn't been decided already.

I'd say that the Bern unit has a very small chance, if, and that's a stretch, as Sanders wanted obama primaried in 2012, but if obama endorses him. Then Hillary would be put in a mental health care center and on suicide watch!

The Prophet said:

It's crystal clear that he is getting the short straw. Debbie Wasserman- Schultz is in charge of scheduling debates, and she clearly schedules them on nights where viewership is going to be extremely low. She is a clear Hillary fawn, and is a device meant to accelerate a coronation. Bernie and O'Malley might just be the only 2 people left on earth who naively think this primary hasn't been decided already.

I'd say that the Bern unit has a very small chance, if, and that's a stretch, as Sanders wanted obama primaried in 2012, but if obama endorses him. Then Hillary would be put in a mental health care center and on suicide watch!

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I don't see Obama endorsing anyone to be honest.

And if the Democrats lose in November, which despite what people think they have the very real shot at doing, I'll directly pin the blame on her and the DNC.

Well the thing is that Bernie no question, generates the most enthusiasm among democrats. But even if that translates into votes, and Sanders wins most prinaries and caucuses handily, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run, as her majesty will do practically anything to avoid the humiliating defeat she had in 08.

So I'd say that the question then becomes, not if the DNC will cheat, but how will Bernie's supporters take it?

Get ready, I think we are on the verge of witnessing the most corrupted, criminal democratic primary process in history. The DNC will make what the GOP did to Ron Paul seem like business as usual!

The Prophet said:

Well the thing is that Bernie no question, generates the most enthusiasm among democrats. But even if that translates into votes, and Sanders wins most prinaries and caucuses handily, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run, as her majesty will do practically anything to avoid the humiliating defeat she had in 08.

So I'd say that the question then becomes, not if the DNC will cheat, but how will Bernie's supporters take it?

Get ready, I think we are on the verge of witnessing the most corrupted, criminal democratic primary process in history. The DNC will make what the GOP did to Ron Paul seem like business as usual!

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Remember 1964 and to a lesser extent 1968 before saying "most corrupt," please.

Fiddytree said:

Remember 1964 and to a lesser extent 1968 before saying "most corrupt," please.

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Alright. What I should've said is "most corrupted in modern history."

The Prophet said:

Well the thing is that Bernie no question, generates the most enthusiasm among democrats. But even if that translates into votes, and Sanders wins most prinaries and caucuses handily, I just don't think it's going to matter in the long run, as her majesty will do practically anything to avoid the humiliating defeat she had in 08.

So I'd say that the question then becomes, not if the DNC will cheat, but how will Bernie's supporters take it?

Get ready, I think we are on the verge of witnessing the most corrupted, criminal democratic primary process in history. The DNC will make what the GOP did to Ron Paul seem like business as usual!

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Bernie's supporters, like me won't take it well. I'm on the fence and leaning towards committing to not voting for HRC unless the DNC removes DWS as the leader. As much as I can't stand the idea of a Republican President and fear the courts being stacked in favor of conservatives, I think the Democrat Party needs to be taught a lesson. If you can't win fairly on ideas and have to resort to collusion, then **** you. It bothers me on principle that DWS and the DNC are soooo afraid that someone else might beat Hillary that they are willing to put debates on nights where most American's are not going to hear our ideas, like them or not. That's the whole point of the debates, to share your ideas.

akrunner88 said:

Bernie's supporters, like me won't take it well. I'm on the fence and leaning towards committing to not voting for HRC unless the DNC removes DWS as the leader. As much as I can't stand the idea of a Republican President and fear the courts being stacked in favor of conservatives, I think the Democrat Party needs to be taught a lesson. If you can't win fairly on ideas and have to resort to collusion, then **** you. It bothers me on principle that DWS and the DNC are soooo afraid that someone else might beat Hillary that they are willing to put debates on nights where most American's are not going to hear our ideas, like them or not. That's the whole point of the debates, to share your ideas.

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I pretty well don't think that I can vote for Hillary at this point, but we'll see. Ask me again in 11 months if she's up against Trump.

FieldTheorist said:

I pretty well don't think that I can vote for Hillary at this point, but we'll see. Ask me again in 11 months if she's up against Trump.

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I'll have to agree with your line of thinking. I'm also less afraid of Trump than I am of Ted Cruz. Either one of the two would be horrible. I could potentially even vote for a guy like Rand Paul if he had a snowballs chance in hell at winning the election, because he and Bernie Sanders actually have a few key positions in common with each other when it comes to politics and corporate interests colluding with each other.

The Prophet said:

Alright. What I should've said is "most corrupted in modern history."

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Just because you're dissatisfied doesn't mean you get to call 1968 ancient history. 1968 was not that long ago. When you have the '68 convention in there, which basically inspired the Democratic Party's current nominating process, Sanders campaign supporters calling historic foul seem to have dramatically overstated their case.

But that's what happens with protest voters and protest campaigns. Hyperbole galore.

Kobie said:

I don't buy for a second that Democrats are any better at or more prone to use "dirty tricks" than Republicans. The GOP is the party of Lee Atwater, Karl Rove and Frank Luntz.

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I think we need to accept that both parties have so-called "dirty tricks" but generally not like what the Ron Paul campaign or the Sanders campaign supporters have argued.

Atwater, though tapping into racist tones way the hell too much for my liking, and Karl Rove deserve respect. The ragin' Cajun likes to remind folks that he knows what to do.

Negative politics works and should be used on a regular basis.



Best ad in years. Brought to you by a Democrat.

My other recent favorite, though, is good for the rare self-aware parody. Not a negative ad, but rather a parody of the back-and-forth negative ads both Franken and Coleman had in the fall of '08. Thank you Al Franken. Couldn't find it, but I bust a gut laugh when I caught it back in the fall of '08 on my tv.

Al Franken hates puppies - - POLITICO.com

Casper said:

They all tax you to death and Americans prefer to spend their money as they see fit not as the government sees fit.

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Seems they're living longer, healthier, happier lives on average to me, per pretty much every metric we have on these figures.

Napoleon said:

Unfortunately nearly all of Bernie's plans amount to little more than promises he would have zero capability of keeping if elected President. I like a lot of his principles, but they aren't worth anything as idle ideas. What does the man have without them that Hillary doesn't have in abundance?

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I disagree completely, because if he were to get elected, it would set a clear precedent and mandate for Federal level governance, and unlike Obama, Bernie _will_ use the bully pulpit effectively and mercilessly, threatening political opponents with a choice between compliance or electoral ruin.

And as others have repeatedly mentioned, he absolutely does have far more integrity and honesty than Hillary, and better judgment to boot given his vote opposing the Iraq war (something Hillary says she's 'learned from' despite Libya being a similarly abysmal and unambiguous failure), his general opposition to middle east military adventurism and his articulately stated reasons for these positions at the time, all of which were dead on and strikingly prescient, particularly as they relate to forecasts of instability and unforeseen consequences.

Surrealistik said:

Seems they're living longer, healthier, happier lives on average to me, per pretty much every metric we have on these figures.

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Actually the working class is not living longer and healthier, everyone doing so is a Myth.

Casper said:

Actually the working class is not living longer and healthier, everyone doing so is a Myth.

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The average person in those countries I've mentioned are absolutely doing better vis a vis the average American.

Surrealistik said:

The average person in those countries I've mentioned are absolutely doing better vis a vis the average American.

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Define better. I have lived around the Globe and have heard more than a few complain about the taxes and the inability to change them, once implemented it is real hard to reduce social programs or the taxes that go along with them. That said I find the USA the Best place on the planet to live, it may have it's issues but when one sees what the rest of the world is like it not hard to grasp that it is better to be a free man than a kept sheep.

Casper said:

Define better. I have lived around the Globe and have heard more than a few complain about the taxes and the inability to change them, once implemented it is real hard to reduce social programs or the taxes that go along with them. That said I find the USA the Best place on the planet to live, it may have it's issues but when one sees what the rest of the world is like it not hard to grasp that it is better to be a free man than a kept sheep.

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Again, happiness, quality of life, democratic integrity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...usted_HDI_.28IHDI.29_.282015_report.29.5B6.5D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Life_Expectancy_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Better_Life_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The United States has a solid showing in some of these, but it is beaten without exception by more socialist leaning countries.

Shadowless said:

I will never vote for Hillary, or any other "third way" Democrat. The DNC is going to lose a lot of voters.

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Sanders should start the Socialist Party then. He is not even a Democrat. When Sanders endorses Hilary will you change your mind about voting for her or will you bite off your nose to spite your face?

Surrealistik said:

Again, happiness, quality of life, democratic integrity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...usted_HDI_.28IHDI.29_.282015_report.29.5B6.5D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Life_Expectancy_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OECD_Better_Life_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

The United States has a solid showing in some of these, but it is beaten without exception by more socialist leaning countries.

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To each their own, those that live here are the descendants of, or are themselves, those that did not find happiness where they were. I have met more than my fair share of people around the world that would love to move to the US and have never met anyone here that wanted to leave here permanently, that in itself speak volumes.

iguanaman said:

Sanders should start the Socialist Party then. He is not even a Democrat. When Sanders endorses Hilary will you change your mind about voting for her or will you bite off your nose to spite your face?

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Democratic socialism is the legacy of FDR. Hillary is anything but....I will never vote for her, and neither will many others.