Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Click to expand...

Beyond a reasonable doubt is for felony cases - strike 1.

You'll never be able to prove something that you cannot accurately measure - strike 2.

Leverage is not a legal term, nor recognized by the legal system - strike 3, the concept is out.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Click to expand...

Sure we probably made a mistake, when we allowed divorce. But with that dam down there will be damage.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.

Click to expand...

Absolutely.

JANFU said:

~ In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues ~

Click to expand...

Very few judges will do this as it can be argued as punishing the child. What does happen and is more meaningful is a reversal of residence.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

SMTA said:

Beyond a reasonable doubt is for felony cases - strike 1.

You'll never be able to prove something that you cannot accurately measure - strike 2.

Leverage is not a legal term, nor recognized by the legal system - strike 3, the concept is out.

Click to expand...

Fair enough- then take the points - clean it up to a legal standard and post it.
Or send it by PM to me and I will.
In the end it is child abuse
Emotional Child Abuse – Definitions of child neglect and other emotionally abusive behavior

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

SMTA said:

Beyond a reasonable doubt is for felony cases - strike 1.

You'll never be able to prove something that you cannot accurately measure - strike 2.

Leverage is not a legal term, nor recognized by the legal system - strike 3, the concept is out.

Click to expand...

though i'm likely to agree that using children as weapons in a divorce is some form of abuse... I think I lean towards agreeing that it fails as a legal concept...especially as a jail-able offense.

it might be unsavory, unkind, and assholish... but that doesn't mean it's a criminal offense... or that it should be a criminal offense.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Click to expand...

I say if a person leaves their spouse without good cause they should go to prison.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Click to expand...

There is no winner in divorce, and the child always looses the most.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse.
Yes
No
Other – Please explain
Further mental abuse – jail time – Yes
Further mental abuse – jail time – No
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- Yes
Abuse continues Judge Amends visitation rights- mandates courses to attend/pass- No

I have seen time and again, people using their children as leverage against the other parent.
Using a child to vent on the other parent, to try and gain their sympathy, their support of their position.
Yes, I have seen both parents doing this.
We at times read about it in the news, where one is suing the other.
In my opinion, this mental abuse, perpetrated by a parent(s) is child abuse.

In legal cases where this can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, the parent should be jailed for a short term, and warned of further jail time if this child abuse continues.

To the Moderators- Was not sure where this should be posted.

Click to expand...

Well except parents who aren't divorced do this too. One reason I didn't fight the first husband when he wanted a divorce was because he was always encouraging the kids to break the rules and then laughing his ass of behind their backs and mine really when they had to be disciplined for whatever it was. It wasn't a house full of menial rules either. I've seen many parents do this, trying to endear themselves to the kids or so it seems, but the really since they know the other parent will enforce the rules, what it really does is create animosity between the children and the other parent. My mother did this to my father and us kids. Told us we had permission to do things we knew he didn't allow and then pretending she never told us it was okay when he went to beat us. Now I didn't beat my kids, but I sure recognized that I had married my mother in that regard. They do whatever they need to in order to be the only one loved by the children, well until the children get educated or get wise.

So after the divorce I would have been the one seeming more like your OP indicates because it was time for them to realize what game their dad had played for 11 years of their lives.

Some parents deserve to have their children turned against them, that's what I'm saying.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

Summerwind said:

Well except parents who aren't divorced do this too. One reason I didn't fight the first husband when he wanted a divorce was because he was always encouraging the kids to break the rules and then laughing his ass of behind their backs and mine really when they had to be disciplined for whatever it was. It wasn't a house full of menial rules either. I've seen many parents do this, trying to endear themselves to the kids or so it seems, but the really since they know the other parent will enforce the rules, what it really does is create animosity between the children and the other parent. My mother did this to my father and us kids. Told us we had permission to do things we knew he didn't allow and then pretending she never told us it was okay when he went to beat us. Now I didn't beat my kids, but I sure recognized that I had married my mother in that regard. They do whatever they need to in order to be the only one loved by the children, well until the children get educated or get wise.

So after the divorce I would have been the one seeming more like your OP indicates because it was time for them to realize what game their dad had played for 11 years of their lives.

Some parents deserve to have their children turned against them, that's what I'm saying.

Click to expand...

I see your point. Do you think, dependent upon age, they would learn that by themselves?

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

I see your point. Do you think, dependent upon age, they would learn that by themselves?

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No, instead they seem to emulate it. It's what they learn. My son was more resistant, and actually can still tolerate his dad, but my daughter is a chip off the ol' block, and if she gets around him much she does starts doing what he does while at the same time being subjected to his trying isolate her which as adult now includes what he used to do to me, which is conversely either my friends were too good for me, who did I think I was, or they were scum and how could I stoop so low... well as she aged he started that with her. Pretty much she doesn't have anything to do with him. It could be too that as son became man, ex-hubby no longer saw him as targetable simply because of the level of sexist ex-hubby turned out to be. Honestly he wasn't like that at all until about month after we married. His mother was like my mother and just made both insecure and hateful of himself for choosing me and me for ... being me. It was long, hard slog, and when he said he wanted a divorce I jumped at it.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

Summerwind said:

No, instead they seem to emulate it. It's what they learn. My son was more resistant, and actually can still tolerate his dad, but my daughter is a chip off the ol' block, and if she gets around him much she does starts doing what he does while at the same time being subjected to his trying isolate her which as adult now includes what he used to do to me, which is conversely either my friends were too good for me, who did I think I was, or they were scum and how could I stoop so low... well as she aged he started that with her. Pretty much she doesn't have anything to do with him. It could be too that as son became man, ex-hubby no longer saw him as targetable simply because of the level of sexist ex-hubby turned out to be. Honestly he wasn't like that at all until about month after we married. His mother was like my mother and just made both insecure and hateful of himself for choosing me and me for ... being me. It was long, hard slog, and when he said he wanted a divorce I jumped at it.

Click to expand...

Thank you. He is a real piece of work and that is not a positive term I am using. Good that you got out.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Fair enough- then take the points - clean it up to a legal standard and post it.
Or send it by PM to me and I will.
In the end it is child abuse
Emotional Child Abuse – Definitions of child neglect and other emotionally abusive behavior

Click to expand...

I see that you're agreeing with me and seeing my point, but as I continue down the thread and see you repeat that using children as leverage is abuse, I have to repeat that what I did after the divorce would seem like using the children as leverage as I finally told after two years of everything getting worse because now I wasn't around for his two weekends a month and so he'd send them back just totally misbehaving and hating me. By the end of a week and half we'd be back on track just in time to send them to him for two days. They'd come back hating me, hating each other, and pretty much hating themselves. Finally I said, choose, but no more back and forth, just not worth it for the children. Either wallow in the "ex-hubby's last name" legacy and live with him, or live here, but I could no longer tolerate, nor was it at all good for the children to ping pong like that. Just not. And yet, because I'm an avowed atheist and liberal, who's divorce was in Idaho and included a clause that I could not leave Idaho with written permission from my ex,.... none of these facts would have mattered,... he would have had his totally reputable family line up beside him and I wouldn't have my family (even more reputable, even more dysfunctional) anywhere near the children. So yeah, if this became somehow a legal thing, I'd have been screwed and so would the children have been.

Defining "leverage," would be nearly impossible to define to assure a lack of social bias from the bench.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

Summerwind said:

I see that you're agreeing with me and seeing my point, but as I continue down the thread and see you repeat that using children as leverage is abuse, I have to repeat that what I did after the divorce would seem like using the children as leverage as I finally told after two years of everything getting worse because now I wasn't around for his two weekends a month and so he'd send them back just totally misbehaving and hating me. By the end of a week and half we'd be back on track just in time to send them to him for two days. They'd come back hating me, hating each other, and pretty much hating themselves. Finally I said, choose, but no more back and forth, just not worth it for the children. Either wallow in the "ex-hubby's last name" legacy and live with him, or live here, but I could no longer tolerate, nor was it at all good for the children to ping pong like that. Just not. And yet, because I'm an avowed atheist and liberal, who's divorce was in Idaho and included a clause that I could not leave Idaho with written permission from my ex,.... none of these facts would have mattered,... he would have had his totally reputable family line up beside him and I wouldn't have my family (even more reputable, even more dysfunctional) anywhere near the children. So yeah, if this became somehow a legal thing, I'd have been screwed and so would the children have been.
Defining "leverage," would be nearly impossible to define to assure a lack of social bias from the bench.

Click to expand...

No I was asking a question is all. No accusations of abuse by you were intended. I liked the posts as you brought forth a valid situation, which I am sure is common, that I had not considered.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

JANFU said:

Fair enough- then take the points - clean it up to a legal standard and post it.
Or send it by PM to me and I will.
In the end it is child abuse
Emotional Child Abuse – Definitions of child neglect and other emotionally abusive behavior

Click to expand...

No standard for measurement - still a fail.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

SMTA said:

No standard for measurement - still a fail.

Click to expand...

Thank you.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

joG said:

Sure we probably made a mistake, when we allowed divorce. But with that dam down there will be damage.

Click to expand...

So you want to force people to stay married?

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

DA60 said:

So you want to force people to stay married?

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That might easily be better for the kids. I'm not sure. But we obviously have a growing set of problems in your society that seems to be paralleled with a lag in other countries. While it is improbable that the changes with respect to marriage are alone cause, it does appear believable that the package of liberalizing changes we have introduced over the decades since the beginning of the last century have effected some negative consequences together with the more pleasant ones.

Re: Divorced - separated- estranged – children used as leverage - This is child abuse

joG said:

That might easily be better for the kids. I'm not sure. But we obviously have a growing set of problems in your society that seems to be paralleled with a lag in other countries. While it is improbable that the changes with respect to marriage are alone cause, it does appear believable that the package of liberalizing changes we have introduced over the decades since the beginning of the last century have effected some negative consequences together with the more pleasant ones.

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Well written response, imo.

But I don't think it would make it easier for the children if the parents are forced to stay together even though they no longer love/even hate each other.

I am a product of divorce. And it was misery being around my parents for years when they would almost constantly fight. Things were FAR more peaceful for me after they split up. Plus, they were both in much better spirits overall.