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Headin' Out

Your thoughts on the right to die at the time of your choosing.

  • Assisted death is murder, I would never support this.

    Votes: 4 8.2%

  • Assisted death should be supported by law.

    Votes: 37 75.5%

  • I am uncertain, there should be strong regulation.

    Votes: 5 10.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 3 6.1%
  • Total voters
    49
The issue is broader than most would like to think about. Many (most?) do not envision the case where consent of the terminally ill is no longer possible (due to Alzheimer's perhaps) or the patient is a minor and someone else has obtained power of attorney or is legally entitled to make medical decisions on their behalf (parent or legal guardian). Once "to end suffering" is made a legal reason to allow termination of life as a "treatment plan" then we must consider whether (medical?) power of attorney includes that option.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The issue is broader than most would like to think about. Many (most?) do not envision the case where consent of the terminally ill is no longer possible (due to Alzheimer's perhaps) or the patient is a minor and someone else has obtained power of attorney or is legally entitled to make medical decisions on their behalf (parent or legal guardian). Once "to end suffering" is made a legal reason to allow termination of life as a "treatment plan" then we must consider whether (medical?) power of attorney includes that option.
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should medical power of attorney include the option?
 
_Sal said:
should medical power of attorney include the option?
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That is precisely my question. As it stands now, I would say that any medical treatment option added would be (and should be) allowed. Since they can now issue DNR orders or refuse recommended life extending treatment plans for others then why not include any new medical treatment options?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
That is precisely my question. As it stands now, I would say that any medical treatment option added would be (and should be) allowed. Since they can now issue DNR orders or refuse recommended life extending treatment plans for others then why not include any new medical treatment options?
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I don't have a problem with it.

I removed a girlfriend who is like a sister from my power of attorney because she would over ride my wishes to die and it would haunt her forever

my guy would not, but I still want my power of attorney to be manned by multiple people should this situation arise for me...I don't want the burden to be placed upon one person even though my wishes are clear, it's still hard to be the one to say pull the plug or let's go for another few days...it's easier when it's a group but you have to trust everyone in the group

trust your power of attorney or remove them...that's what it's about
 
_Sal said:
I don't have a problem with it.

I removed a girlfriend who is like a sister from my power of attorney because she would over ride my wishes to die and it would haunt her forever

my guy would not, but I still want my power of attorney to be manned by multiple people should this situation arise for me...I don't want the burden to be placed upon one person even though my wishes are clear, it's still hard to be the one to say pull the plug or let's go for another few days...it's easier when it's a group but you have to trust everyone in the group

trust your power of attorney or remove them...that's what it's about
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Assisted suicide is well beyond pulling the plug it is more like ordering another to pull the lever in an execution. The difference being that the act requires no due process beyond a (medical?) power of attorney - even if the patient (or their family member) objects, the power of attorney legally prevails.
 
_Sal said:
should medical power of attorney include the option?
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We updated ours earlier this year.
1 point to remember for DNR’s, excessive medical treatment, and all that stuff.
Ensure that it is clearly noted that a Doctor licensed in that State- Province – country etc as you may live in Ontario, but the accident- injury – stroke occurred in California.
Otherwise they are not required by law to follow your wishes, or the person you have assigned to sign off on denial of extraordinary medical treatments.
Example -Try finding a California Dr. that is also licensed in Ontario will be extremely difficult and expensive.
Throws a monkey wrench into your DNR

Last bit of advice- Use a Lawyer.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Assisted suicide is well beyond pulling the plug it is more like ordering another to pull the lever in an execution. The difference being that the act requires no due process beyond a (medical?) power of attorney - even if the patient (or their family member) objects, the power of attorney legally prevails.
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well yes it is beyond pulling the plug...assisted suicide would be prior to that level of deterioration

I think in Ontario there are still circumstances where the person who holds the legal power of attorney can over ride the desire of the person that has signed it...which could create problems...better to have more than one so that logic prevails. Actually it isn't power of attorney here in Ontario it's called a Living Will.

Best that everyone has one so that there is nothing to guess about.
 
JANFU said:
We updated ours earlier this year.
1 point to remember for DNR’s, excessive medical treatment, and all that stuff.
Ensure that it is clearly noted that a Doctor licensed in that State- Province – country etc as you may live in Ontario, but the accident- injury – stroke occurred in California.
Otherwise they are not required by law to follow your wishes, or the person you have assigned to sign off on denial of extraordinary medical treatments.
Example -Try finding a California Dr. that is also licensed in Ontario will be extremely difficult and expensive.
Throws a monkey wrench into your DNR

Last bit of advice- Use a Lawyer.
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good points

we both used lawyers and opted for multiple people involved actually two people

I have changed my Living Will once already.
 
_Sal said:
good points

we both used lawyers and opted for multiple people involved actually two people

I have changed my Living Will once already.
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Next point is ensuring the person who as they say, pulls the plug is able to do that. It is not an easy decision to make.
And the big one, that person you ask is crystal clear on your wishes.
 
JANFU said:
Next point is ensuring the person who as they say, pulls the plug is able to do that. It is not an easy decision to make.
And the big one, that person you ask is crystal clear on your wishes.
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well for me, those points are a given...you have to be clear and confident prior as we have discussed here in the thread and that means sometimes altering the Living Will

loads of people don't like to discuss these things...they say it is morbid...I think they are in denial of life and death
 
_Sal said:
noooooooooot quite, that is disingenuous of you since you have been involved in this discussion from the beginning

although, to be fair, I do see how you could draw that conclusion of convenience...actually many people just exit before they would need to because they will become physically unable to do so themselves, I know you must grasp that concept although you have been avoiding it...thus you are actually forcing them to end their life sooner than necessary...you can see that right?
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If I saw that, I'd be seeing things that aren't there.

I've already explained why the physical capability to commit an active type of suicide is convenient but not necessary to kill yourself.

Even without that, "force" nothing - the choice to kill oneself or not is entirely up to them.
 
iguanaman said:
There is no victim and mercy is no crime.
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Your assertion is delusional in every way.

Mercy in healthcare is about curing negative symptoms, or failing that, palliation. Inflicting a worse state of health - death - deliberately is not mercy, it's just homicide.
 
JayDubya said:
If I saw that, I'd be seeing things that aren't there.

I've already explained why the physical capability to commit an active type of suicide is convenient but not necessary to kill yourself.

Even without that, "force" nothing - the choice to kill oneself or not is entirely up to them.
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okay

neither of us is about to change our opinion although I do wonder if you actually believe what you are presenting, it's seems too narrow a view for a complex topic
 
_Sal said:
okay

neither of us is about to change our opinion although I do wonder if you actually believe what you are presenting, it's seems too narrow a view for a complex topic
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"Killing another human being without justification is wrong" is not narrow, it is a concrete and absolute moral principle. Not only do I hold to it, it is the entire point of civilization. If there is no law against killing in aggression, then there is no point in having laws.

You cannot abdicate your own right to life such that it is okay for someone else to kill you; it is unalienable.

As another example for understanding, let's go with another natural human right: liberty. You cannot abdicate your right to liberty; the most literal and direct comparison to the above case of having someone else kill you would be for you to become a slave. You cannot become the property of someone else - you can volunteer to work for someone for no money, I suppose, but only if you choose to do so and you can stop and leave at any time. You cannot do this because your right to liberty is unalienable.
 
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JayDubya said:
"Killing another human being without justification is wrong"
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this line sums up everything and is really all that is necessary since we both agree with the above line

I believe aiding another to die when they are in agony and requesting help to die is justification

you do not

the rest are merely words and thus superflous
 
_Sal said:
I believe aiding another to die when they are in agony and requesting help to die is justification
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It can't be justification. The victim still has an unalienable right to life. The situation is in no way comparable to self-defense.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm just asking.
What if they're depressed and just want to die.
Nothing else but that.

It's just a question to ponder, I don't know either way.
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After counseling and guidelines that the psychiatric community set, IMO yes. I believe that people claim to be absolutely miserable when severely depressed and I know of 2 people who where like that for decades.

If that is their 'informed' choice, then yes. And they can still discuss it with and prepare family and friends, rather than committing suicide and doing those loved ones even more harm. Sure, it would be painful for family but it's not their lives, their pain. And being prepared for it would help them as well.
 
_Sal said:
again we agree, the situation is in no way comparable to self-defense
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And because of that, you cannot justify the killing.
 
joG said:
What was the evidence for relativity in 1901? Maybe you can remind me?
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There wasn't any and therefore, it would have been foolish to believe in it in 1901, regardless of whether or not it eventually turned out to be true. Rational people accept things as there is evidence, not before, hoping that someday, there will be evidence for them. There's all kinds of crazy things that people believed in 1901 that turned out to be completely false, after all.
 
Lursa said:
After counseling and guidelines that the psychiatric community set, IMO yes. I believe that people claim to be absolutely miserable when severely depressed and I know of 2 people who where like that for decades.

If that is their 'informed' choice, then yes. And they can still discuss it with and prepare family and friends, rather than committing suicide and doing those loved ones even more harm. Sure, it would be painful for family but it's not their lives, their pain. And being prepared for it would help them as well.
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I dunno, I'm imagining someone going through a painful break up and depressed from that.
In a rather rash moment, they decide to end their life, when they have children still at home.

Sure people can do that now, but not with state support.
So I guess what I'm saying is that, it's not likely to be in the kids best interest to have state sponsorship of something like that.

Just an idea though.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I dunno, I'm imagining someone going through a painful break up and depressed from that.
In a rather rash moment, they decide to end their life, when they have children still at home.

Sure people can do that now, but not with state support.
So I guess what I'm saying is that, it's not likely to be in the kids best interest to have state sponsorship of something like that.

Just an idea though.
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I dont think that the guidelines for any assisted suicide would be likely to suggest it be done on the 'spur of the moment' and without making sure the person is making an informed decision. Counseling would likely be required.

What you described is different than the severe chronic others experience with depression, which the article mentioned and which I referred to earlier.
 
Lursa said:
I dont think that the guidelines for any assisted suicide would be likely to suggest it be done on the 'spur of the moment' and without making sure the person is making an informed decision. Counseling would likely be required.

What you described is different than the severe chronic others experience with depression, which the article mentioned and which I referred to earlier.
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I dunno, I just think that we're going to run into ethical issues with this.
In theory, I support that choice, in practice not sure.

The state making it legal, I may be fine with.
The state giving a blanket support, I dunno.
 
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