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If the Jews had guns would that affected the Holocaust?

Would guns have helped the Jews resist?

  • Total voters
    56
jet57 said:
I don't know where you're getting the notion that I have made such an inane claim, can you show me where I have? Secondly, misrepresenting what I've said further only demonstrated your inability to refute fact. So, try please try and stay on track.
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And what fact is that? Other than your statement that they were armed? Unless you are going to shift your goal post to encompass and extreme minority that WERE better served by being armed.
 
VanceMack said:
Really? Id like you to consider how stupid what you just said is, all things considered. See if you can figure that out.
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Just claiming that means nothing. Make a concise argument in support or just leave it.

And maybe pray that nobody takes the trouble to actually follow our little dialogue, in order to determine who is actually being stupid.
 
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ocean515 said:
LOL. Come on Pete, you're far smarter than this. Sure, the Nazi's would have taken them away, and far more Nazi's would have been killed while doing so. This clearly would have helped in the effort of the Jews to resist.

Even you are apparently suffering from the desperation virus. Dr. Carson was right. The media, and especially the lunatic left wing media, is an enemy of the truth, and therefor an enemy of the people.
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Sorry Dr. Carson is wrong, this not a left or right issue. Your claim that more Nazis would be killed is at best irrelevant, no less and maybe more Jews would be murdered. I would love it if he got nomination and started spewing this crap.
 
VanceMack said:
Its not a myth. It is a fact that armed French citizens survived the occupation and even fought back on occasion.
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No idea of what pertinence that is supposed to be. Probably as much as the fact that those not in the resistance, overall (individual exceptions notwithstanding) survived with greater frequency.

That the resistance, before the Allied invasion, played any significant role in making life so very troublesome for the German occupiers IS a myth. You might want to do some research instead of mantra-ing an opinion in the delusional hope that repetition makes it true.

And while it may not speak to what difference it would make if you had a fighting chance, history paints a pretty stark picture of what happened when they didnt.
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Been thru all that before, see Polish and French armies.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The OP only mentions that Carson has that stand... not that this thread is about Carson's view.

The Poll Question is: Would guns have helped the Jews resist?
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......and if one cares to read, my take is "not much". If we also consider the thread title just for the hell of it, I come to my vote of "no".

The fallback assumption is that this is during the time of the round-ups. Nazi's come to the door kinda thing...
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Well, that's the premise I assumed at well.
I repeated the line because it merited repeating...
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yeah, to some maybe.

...and I am feeling great about 97% of the time. :)
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Ah, so yesterday was 3 pct time?:mrgreen:
 
Rentoc said:
The Government would never hurt us. They are there to protect us, to keep us warm and healthy, to feed us and clothe us. From cradle to grave. Didn't you watch the debate last night?
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great post. sadly, lots of Jews felt that way about the German government even as the first steps of the final solution started. I remember reading about a WWI war hero (for the Germans) who was Jewish who couldn't believe his own country would turn on him and his family

never ever let down your guard
 
Kreton said:
No. The jews and the rest of the world had no idea what was going to happen until it was happening. It is pretty well documented. The nazis did not just advertise that they were going to mass murder the jews. It was progressive and by the time most jews realized what was happening it was too late and they would have already been disarmed.
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sounds like a more extreme but similar incremental approach to gun banning we see in other countries as well

its why Gun banners rarely come out and say what their real goal is
 
TurtleDude said:
sounds like a more extreme but similar incremental approach to gun banning we see in other countries as well

its why Gun banners rarely come out and say what their real goal is
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Not sure how you are connecting what I said with what you are saying.

Germany didn't ban guns with the intent of causing the holocaust that I have ever seen any evidence of.

My point is that whether or not the Jewish people had guns would have had very little impact if any on what happened.
 
Kreton said:
Not sure how you are connecting what I said with what you are saying.

Germany didn't ban guns with the intent of causing the holocaust that I have ever seen any evidence of.

My point is that whether or not the Jewish people had guns would have had very little impact if any on what happened.
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the point was if the Germans announced in 1934 they were going to kill every Jew they could find, they would not have been nearly as successful as their incremental implementation of the "final solution"

if the Gun banners like Feinswine came out in 1994 and said "THE DNC WANTS TO BAN all guns and confiscate them" the clinton AWb never would have passed.
 
Chagos said:
......and if one cares to read, my take is "not much". If we also consider the thread title just for the hell of it, I come to my vote of "no".

Well, that's the premise I assumed at well.yeah, to some maybe.

Ah, so yesterday was 3 pct time?:mrgreen:
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I didn't realize that I repeated it to you both times! :lol:

My bad...
 
haymarket said:
Because I do not agree with you? Why do some on the right pretend this is about knowledge instead of the view one has after acquiring knowledge?

I also know the difference between 1776 and 2015. It appears some on the right do not.
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:doh:doh
 
pbrauer said:
Sorry Dr. Carson is wrong, this not a left or right issue. Your claim that more Nazis would be killed is at best irrelevant, no less and maybe more Jews would be murdered. I would love it if he got nomination and started spewing this crap.
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LOL

No, you are wrong. But in fairness, I understand why it's imperative that you think you are correct.
 
Hamster Buddha said:
You guys are talking about the time that the War had begun and I don't think anyone is arguing that you couldn't of prevented that (at least not without going underground and organizing a resistance and even then it would be difficult to save all but a few). Once things got to the stage of the holocaust and the formation of the SS, then by then it really was too late because you then had a collected military force that had no shyness to slaughtering innocents. Really, what we're talking about is could the Jews having guns had prevented Kristallnacht and I do think so. At this time, the military wasn't involved and the SS wasn't up to the same strength it was once the war began. Had the Jews of had guns and been organized (which by that time they would be as they would of seen the writing on the wall), then I do think a lot of lives could of been saved because it wouldn't been as easy to victimize the Jewish people.

And to the comment on what would happened to their families; six million Jews died. I'm pretty sure their families were already in danger at that point and regardless if they rose up or not, it wasn't going to change things. I mean, look at Anne Frank who her and her family hid for several years. And in the end, it didn't help.
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The Kristallnacht happened because of a Jew with a gun, or at least it was the excuse the Nazi's used.

And in 1938 the whole German police, military and paramilitary where in the power of the Nazi party. If the much larger social democratic and communist power blocks weren't able to stop the Nazi party, the Jews would not have been able to do that with the meager weaponry that was in existence at that time. Even if every single Jew would have been armed, they would not have been able to stop them. As soon as the Reichtag went up in flames, the die was cast and I do not think there would have been one thing that could have stopped the 2nd world war from coming around.
 
They had a culture and tradition that mostly chose non-confrontation and non-violence.

I dont think they would have acted in time and in enough numbers to stop the Holocaust, but that's just IMO.

IMO, it took the Holocaust to make such a wide-reaching cultural change.
 
Manc Skipper said:
If they wanted you dead, you died.
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That is actually not true at all. Armed resistance movements in Poland and the Soviet Union (where most of the Jewish victims were from) lasted until the end of the war and were very successful at disrupting German operations.
 
MadLib said:
That is actually not true at all. Armed resistance movements in Poland and the Soviet Union (where most of the Jewish victims were from) lasted until the end of the war and were very successful at disrupting German operations.
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the bottom line is expressed in another one of my favorite lines from one of the Billy Jack films-sadly I cannot find it on Youtube

it is something like this. If you know your are going to take a horrible beating, and there is nothing you can do to stop it, make sure you get in the first good shot

and if you know people are going to kill you and you cannot stop it. its always better to take as many of them with you than it is to meekly submit

and if you are armed, you have a far better chance of having a few scum bags to open heaven's gate for you than if you are unarmed
 
TurtleDude said:
the bottom line is expressed in another one of my favorite lines from one of the Billy Jack films-sadly I cannot find it on Youtube

it is something like this. If you know your are going to take a horrible beating, and there is nothing you can do to stop it, make sure you get in the first good shot

and if you know people are going to kill you and you cannot stop it. its always better to take as many of them with you than it is to meekly submit

and if you are armed, you have a far better chance of having a few scum bags to open heaven's gate for you than if you are unarmed
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Maybe that works in a normal situation, but it does not fit the situation of the Jews/the occupied countries during the height of Nazi rule. Because if you took as many with you as you could (not very likely, they where armed with tanks, bombs, planes, fire throwing devices, fully automatic machine guns, artillery and a complete overkill when it comes to the number of troops), you were just setting up the people you loved the most/the people living in your town/etc. etc. etc. for paying the price for your "taking as much of them with you". And that is exactly how the Nazi's worked, they ruled by creating terror and committing atrocities if people stood up against them.
 
TurtleDude said:
the bottom line is expressed in another one of my favorite lines from one of the Billy Jack films-sadly I cannot find it on Youtube

it is something like this. If you know your are going to take a horrible beating, and there is nothing you can do to stop it, make sure you get in the first good shot

and if you know people are going to kill you and you cannot stop it. its always better to take as many of them with you than it is to meekly submit

and if you are armed, you have a far better chance of having a few scum bags to open heaven's gate for you than if you are unarmed
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The thing is that there are valid arguments to be made that the Jews having guns wouldn't have made much of a difference - that they didn't know what the Nazis had in store for them, and that Jewish culture usually disapproved of violence even in the face of persecution - but the idea that armed resistance would have been useless is blatantly false. Fifteen minutes spent on Wikipedia reading about the various partisan groups would easily dispel the notion of an all-powerful Nazi occupation.
 
WWII European Jews weren't Americans. Are Europeans even allowed to possess firearms? Historically?
 
Not sure pistols and rifles would do much good against machine guns, but better to go down fighting than being herded into cattle cars.
 
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