Did you read the Quran?

Islam is a religion that bases its authority on the word of honor of one man. Muhammad performed no miracles. He came before the Arab people with the Koran and said, "This was dictated to me by the Angel Gabriel. Trust me. It was."

By contrast, the Bible was written during a period of about thirteen centuries by many men, and perhaps a few women. If it is a hoax one has to believe in a conspiracy lasting that long, and involving all those writers. There are contradictions in the Bible. Most are subtle and lack theological significance. When reading the Bible from cover to cover I usually needed Bible commentary to point them out to me. It is probably the case that most of those who have read the Bible from cover to cover like I have did not notice them.

The Koran mentions events written of in the Bible, but the knowledge of the Bible expressed in the Koran resembles the knowledge of a man who has never read the Bible, but who remembers Bible stories from Sunday School as a child. Although Muhammad claimed to be God's greatest prophet, there is no mention in the Koran of the writing prophets. The theology of prophets like Isaiah and Jeremiah cannot be expressed in anecdotes understandable by children.

Medusa said:

QURAN has never been changed because it can't be

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That would be an inaccurate and absolutist statement.
The Buccaneer/Pirate manual known as the Koran - in part a text for how to divide up the spoils of war - has of course changed.
We have physical proof.
The Sana'a hoard/manuscripts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript
The earliest known Korans are 'Palimpsests', New text written over old.

Medusa said:

'Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.'
as we see there is no jihad

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Of course, selecta-quoting one verse from the Koran is not proof of anything.
It does Not contradict my point that the Koran has both peaceful and violent verses, and that the later/violent ones "abrogate" ...
Peace or Jihad? Abrogation in Islam :: Middle East Quarterly
the earlier peaceful ones.
You have not, indeed cannot, address it.

And I wonder how you would feel if you were freed from the all-encompassing grip of an Islamic country/culture for a few years.

DA60 said:

Oh, and if anyone doubts what a complete piece of **** the Bible is...this site will 'show the way'...

Evil Bible Home Page

I imagine there are other similar sites for the other major 'God Clubs' that point out how asinine each one really is.

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I have to wonder if you've ever tried to understand what the Bible tries to teach mankind from both a historical and behavioral standpoints.

Man can be cruel, vicious, vile. If let to our own self-interest, we can be and often times are destructive. There are lessons in Scripture that try to teach man how to live life in very peaceful, less destructive ways. That doesn't mean that man should never seek to defend himself or his nation against others who would wish to do him or his nation harm. But the Bible does try to illustrate what could happen to man or a nation if it "turns right instead of turning left"...if his path isn't straight, if his heart is filed with evil and not goodness.

You call those who try to adhere to Scripture sheep. But sheep can be led to safety just as much as they can be led to the slaughter. I see the Bible as a guidebook on how man is to live with lessons on what could happen if mankind adheres more to sinful (evil) ways than to purity (righteous) ways.

Moreover, I think the link you've provided grossly mis-characterizes some Biblical events, such as, the events that took place in Judges 21. To understand this chapter, one needs to read from chapter 17 onward. Basically, you had one tribe of Israel in particular, the tribe of Gilead, that wasn't adhering to God's ways as one of the 12 Tribes of Judah. So, after the Israelites (the righteous 10 tribes) had just successfully completed battle against Gilead and Benjamin (the other Israelite tribe that turned against them), Israel decided not to allow their daughters to marry anyone who sought to do them harm. But they realized there wasn't enough available men from the remaining 10 tribes to go around especially after realizing that of the 12 tribes of Israel, only one tribe - the tribe of Gilead (being sore losers) did not assemble when called to do so. (You have to also remember the lives of many men where lost in close combat, also.) For their punishment, the remaining 11 tribes sent warriors to Gilead to kill every man, woman and child who lived their except the virgin girls. The reasons here being very obvious:

1) the young virgins girls were not married, thus, they were available to someday marry; and,

2) virgins still represent purity. As such, the remaining Israelite tribes wanted nothing unpure to enter their camp since the inhabitants of Gilead were considered to be evil men.

As to the tribe of Benjamin, the returned to the fold after accepting an offer of peace. Now, it is true that the Benjamite men did kidnap the women of Shiloh, but the rape that is alleged did not happen in accordance with Scripture, at least not in the way your linked source would have one believe.

Context matters, my friend. There's also reading comprehension with the historical context. If you just read, "He who is without sin cast the first stone," without understanding the debate that lead to that verse, you really haven't learned anything as to what that passage of Scripture was trying to teach.

Now, as to whether or not I've read the Qu'ron, yes. A brief English translation version of the Muslim holy book. There are thing about it that make my hair stand on end. There are passages that shock me (i.e., the treatment of women). There are passages that I believe are taken out of context, but that's true of Bible versus as well.

Overall, I think the Qu'ron is peaceful. Unfortunately, much of its teachings are derived from Old Testament times which is very backwards from how the world works today.

Cephus said:

Same reason I've read the Bible more than once. Same reason I've read the Book of Mormon more than once. Same reason I read lots of books more than once. You don't get a full understanding the first time through, it takes multiple readings over several years to really digest the content.

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But I don't think you can fully understand any religious book without conducting some intense study. There's just too much history behind specific events to take any of it at face value.

That said, I've long believed that religion tends to divide man, whereas spirituality unites us. The irony here is I identify more with the Christian faith than I do Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Catholicism or Mormonism. I just think it's a more practical way of life than any of the others because through Christianity YOU have the choice when to have that relationship with an All Mighty God...when you're ready.

Ray410 said:

That's why I'm reading it, I'll be able to form my own opinion about that rather than having to rely on what someone else says.

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EXACTLY!

It's why I read the English language translation right after 9/11. I wanted to know more about the religious background of those who attacked us that day. And what I learned was the fanatics have taken certain passages from their holy book and twisted their meanings.

Objective Voice said:

EXACTLY!

It's why I read the English language translation right after 9/11. I wanted to know more about the religious background of those who attacked us that day. And what I learned was the fanatics have taken certain passages from their holy book and twisted their meanings.

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Yeah, fundamentalists will do that, won't they.

Medusa said:

Did you read the whole?

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No I have not read it in full yet.

Objective Voice said:

Now, as to whether or not I've read the Qu'ron, yes. A brief English translation version of the Muslim holy book. There are thing about it that make my hair stand on end. There are passages that shock me (i.e., the treatment of women). There are passages that I believe are taken out of context, but that's true of Bible versus as well.

Overall, I think the Qu'ron is peaceful. Unfortunately, much of its teachings are derived from Old Testament times which is very backwards from how the world works today.

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Actually, the Koran was dictated to Muhammad around 625 AD (thereabouts), but culturally maybe the Arabs were in 'Old Testament times'.

SmartCat said:

I have read the Koran in three translations: one was translated by J.M. Rodwell; one was translated by Marmaduke Pickthall; one was included in The Harvard Classics.

I have also read the Bible including the Apocrypha in seven translations.

Currently I am reading the Confucian canon. That consists of The Four Books and the Five Classics.

I study and respect each of the world's great religions. Nevertheless, I see problems with Islam that I do not find in the other religions.

Where the Old Testament commands the Israelites to use violence it commands the violence to be used on a limited basis, only to conquer and occupy the Promised Land. Nowhere does the New Testament command Christians to use violence to spread the faith. A strict reading of the New Testament forbids violence under any circumstances.

The Koran does command violence to spread the faith. It is rife with passages like Surah 5: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent, and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their war free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

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The irony here is that goes in concert with Christians not worshiping idols. I can't say I agree with their (Muslims) method, but it does follow a certain Christian tenant that goes against idol worshiping.

For centuries Islam did not threaten the West. The Arab world never recovered from the Mongolian conquests of the thirteenth century. The Ottoman Empire began to decline after the failure of its second siege of Vienna in 1683.

Now Islam is once again dangerous for two reasons: First, the economy of the West is dependent on petroleum from the Mid East. When Arabs and Iranians decide to hike the price of petroleum the results are devastating to Western economies, and especially to the economy of the United States. This happened after the OPEC Oil Embargo of 1973 and the Iranian Revolution of 1979.

The second reason is the population explosion in the Arab countries. Millions of young Arab men enter economies that have little use for them. Many of them long for the affections of 72 virgins in Paradise because they despair of being able to support a wife in this life. Believing that they have little to live for they are not afraid to die killing people.

During the Cold War we could expect a degree of rationality from the Communists. Because they were atheists they had no hope of posthumus rewards for dying for their ideology. With Muslims we cannot count on this.

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That latter parts of your post I can agree with. To that, this is where "sheep" are led to the slaughter...when they have nothing else to believe in or hope for they become "extremely" gullible and manipulative.

Grand Mal said:

Yeah, fundamentalists will do that, won't they.

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But many so-called Christians do the same thing.

Objective Voice said:

But I don't think you can fully understand any religious book without conducting some intense study. There's just too much history behind specific events to take any of it at face value.

That said, I've long believed that religion tends to divide man, whereas spirituality unites us. The irony here is I identify more with the Christian faith than I do Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Catholicism or Mormonism. I just think it's a more practical way of life than any of the others because through Christianity YOU have the choice when to have that relationship with an All Mighty God...when you're ready.

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You cannot have a relationship with something that doesn't exist. There is no evidence for any gods.

I read the portions of the Quran that every non-Muslim should read, since we are targeted for mistreatment, unfairness, violence, and death. Everything an "infidel" needs to know about Islam can be found here: The Quran's Verses of Violence

Objective Voice said:

But many so-called Christians do the same thing.

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Yeah, that's the point I as making.

BrewerBob said:

I became a Born-Again-Christian in my early 20s. While I was an enlisted man in the Army I decided I wanted to become a Chaplain. I decide before applying to seminary I should at least read the Bible in its entirety and become familiar with apologetics before taking that leap. My plan was to build up an arsenal of arguments to defend my faith. Over the course of almost a year of the process it had the opposite affect. I found that I personally couldn't support my positions without some serious cognitive dissonance. At that time I deconverted to a sort of deism. I still believed in a Creator but I doubted any of the religions had it correct. Over time that evolved into atheism.

So it was my personal studies in preparing to become a Chaplain that led to the deconvertion. I never actually became a Chaplain.

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And you based that momentous decision on one reading of the collection of books known as the Bible? Did you by any chance consult God? Did you happen to seek out any explanation of what it was you were reading, say from a theological scholar?

I don't know of many people who chose not to go into auto repair after reading one manual....and can add that it is highly unlikely you even got a prelude to understanding the message of the Bible
BTW, there is no word as 'deconvertion', there never was a conversion in the first place, but a mere flirtation with an idea, one that I assume may have gotten you out of a lot of hard duty

Medusa said:

Did you read the whole?

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I have read about half of it. I have memorized none of it... hehe.

Sometimes I watch Zakir Naik. He has some of the best explanations I have ever heard as to the whys about God and life. It doesn't matter if you are Jewish or Christian, he has the most interesting things to say. I think he has most of the Bible and Quran memorized.

No, but I know in general what it says, and it's all bull****.

Medusa said:

Did you read the whole?

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Nope. Don't care to. Just like I don't care to read the Bible. Neither is required to make judgements on peoples actions so there is no need for me to read either one.

No. But I've never read the bible either.

Fearandloathing said:

And you based that momentous decision on one reading of the collection of books known as the Bible? Did you by any chance consult God? Did you happen to seek out any explanation of what it was you were reading, say from a theological scholar?

I don't know of many people who chose not to go into auto repair after reading one manual....and can add that it is highly unlikely you even got a prelude to understanding the message of the Bible

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I spent a solid year of "soul searching", speaking to clergy, reading everything I could on apologetics. I don't know how many hours I spent on my knees in tearful prayer. I am not sure if you know what it is like to have your entire world view turned on its head. It was probably the most painful experience of my life.

BTW, there is no word as 'deconvertion'

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https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deconversion

If you prefer "losing one's faith" then go with that. Or even apostasy.

there never was a conversion in the first place, but a mere flirtation with an idea, one that I assume may have gotten you out of a lot of hard duty

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I am sure you didn't intend it, but that is probably one of the most offensive things anyone has ever told me. I know what it is to flirt with an idea. I was raised in a mild Christian household. You know, church on easter and Christmas and prayer before you eat whenever there is a big gathering.

It was during a very difficult period of my life when I became a Born-Again Christian. There was nothing I believed more absolute. I came to believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Young Earth and everything. I turned my back on friends who led un-Christian lifestyles. If you had put a gun to my head and said renounce Christ or die, I would have gladly accepted the bullet.

If that wasn't real belief, then I don't believe a single person who says they are a Christian.

I read some parts of it. But there were some pages missing that I had to use when I ran outta TP.