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Refugee crisis in Europe: blessing or curse?

Do you favor political action against the wave of refugees to the EU?

  • I am non EU citizen, I am against this immigration

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • I am non EU citizen, refugees should be welcomed

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • I am non EU citizen and am neutral/don't care

    Votes: 6 33.3%

  • I am EU citizen, I am against this immigration

    Votes: 1 5.6%

  • I am EU citizen, refugees should be welcomed

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • I am EU citizen and am neutral/don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    18
Natan

Natan

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So I read places like Gawker and stumbled upon news of John Oliver and a Last Week Tonight segment on the refugee situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

The propaganda was horrible and the amount of naivety and the degree to which people from the US were uninformed is horrible. Now I know that John Oliver also attracts a certain audience and that it is not a good view of what goes on in the minds of Americans (and other non Europeans). Not that this site is fairly representing the general populace around the world and the different political views, but I would like to ask the following question: are you pro or against accepting all the current refugees?
 
if the EU thinks they can handle millions of poverty stricken Muslims coming straight out of war-zones, millions every year, that's their business. I'm American, i say the EU leadership are out of their minds, but we'll see. time will tell. seems to me the EU already has major unemployment issues...so there are clearly no jobs for these people, which means they'll become wards of the state more often than not.
 
Natan said:
So I read places like Gawker and stumbled upon news of John Oliver and a Last Week Tonight segment on the refugee situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

The propaganda was horrible and the amount of naivety and the degree to which people from the US were uninformed is horrible. Now I know that John Oliver also attracts a certain audience and that it is not a good view of what goes on in the minds of Americans (and other non Europeans). Not that this site is fairly representing the general populace around the world and the different political views, but I would like to ask the following question: are you pro or against accepting all the current refugees?
Click to expand...

For Germany at least it could certainly be a blessing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu1xsykN0gQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZeyYIsGdAA
 
Red_Dave said:
For Germany at least it could certainly be a blessing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu1xsykN0gQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZeyYIsGdAA
Click to expand...
You didn't vote although I know which option you'd take. Very naive, "solve" demographic problems by importing people.

Theory: immigrants will work with fresh new blood and their taxes will pay the pensions of our ageing population.
Reality: pensions are reduced to pay all sorts of benefits to immigrants, using homes for the elderly is already under consideration in Germany and in practice in UK to solve the immigrant housing crisis.
 
Natan said:
You didn't vote although I know which option you'd take. Very naive, "solve" demographic problems by importing people.

Theory: immigrants will work with fresh new blood and their taxes will pay the pensions of our ageing population.
Reality: pensions are reduced to pay all sorts of benefits to immigrants, using homes for the elderly is already under consideration in Germany and in practice in UK to solve the immigrant housing crisis.
Click to expand...

Well the experience in the UK is that a disproportionatly low amount of immigrants claim benefits compared to locals. Of course those waiting for their asylum claims to be processed are often forced to live on benefits but thats another reason to expediate the process.
 
Red_Dave said:
Well the experience in the UK is that a disproportionatly low amount of immigrants claim benefits compared to locals. Of course those waiting for their asylum claims to be processed are often forced to live on benefits but thats another reason to expediate the process.
Click to expand...
For the UK, that may be. For other western European countries like France, germany, Netherlands, Belgium, not so much. Eurostat emplyment data:

Employment_rates_of_population_aged_20-64_years%2C_by_broad_groups_of_citizenship_and_sex%2C_2013.png


In the UK the difference in employment for men is little, for non EU citizen women the difference is large. Many are probably not even allowed to work by their husbands.
 
Natan said:
So I read places like Gawker and stumbled upon news of John Oliver and a Last Week Tonight segment on the refugee situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

The propaganda was horrible and the amount of naivety and the degree to which people from the US were uninformed is horrible. Now I know that John Oliver also attracts a certain audience and that it is not a good view of what goes on in the minds of Americans (and other non Europeans). Not that this site is fairly representing the general populace around the world and the different political views, but I would like to ask the following question: are you pro or against accepting all the current refugees?
Click to expand...

The EU and especially Germany need millions of immigrants over the next decades Germany alone needs at least between 200.000 and 400.000 a year or the social system will crash. That has been know since the 1970s and is well documented in the literature.

To aquire the number unprepared, in haste and under pressure, on the other hand is irresponsible.
 
joG said:
The EU and especially Germany need millions of immigrants over the next decades Germany alone needs at least between 200.000 and 400.000 a year or the social system will crash.
Click to expand...
If those 200.000 to 400.000 don't work, the system will crash alright. I don't even need literature to document that. And even if they do and it lowers the average wage, the social system will see less income from taxes.

joG said:
To aquire the number unprepared, in haste and under pressure, on the other hand is irresponsible.
Click to expand...
That's for sure.
 
Natan said:
So I read places like Gawker and stumbled upon news of John Oliver and a Last Week Tonight segment on the refugee situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

The propaganda was horrible and the amount of naivety and the degree to which people from the US were uninformed is horrible. Now I know that John Oliver also attracts a certain audience and that it is not a good view of what goes on in the minds of Americans (and other non Europeans). Not that this site is fairly representing the general populace around the world and the different political views, but I would like to ask the following question: are you pro or against accepting all the current refugees?
Click to expand...

I'm not expecting 100% good apples but stuff like this doesn't exactly have me shaking in my boots.

Mannheim: Aktion „Nice to meet you“ bringt Einheimische und Flüchtlinge zusammen | Rhein Neckar Fernsehen | Page 2
Willkommenskultur in der Pfalz: Sommerfest für Flüchtlinge in Leinsweiler | Rhein Neckar Fernsehen

I'm more concerned with the minority of second and third generation immigrants of our own and how they have impacted places like Syria, and the potential of them radicalising newcomers and/or their children .
 
RNF seems like the kind of TV Goebbels would make if he were still alive and a communist hippie.
 
Natan said:
For the UK, that may be. For other western European countries like France, germany, Netherlands, Belgium, not so much. Eurostat emplyment data:

Employment_rates_of_population_aged_20-64_years%2C_by_broad_groups_of_citizenship_and_sex%2C_2013.png


In the UK the difference in employment for men is little, for non EU citizen women the difference is large. Many are probably not even allowed to work by their husbands.
Click to expand...

Well whats really telling about those statistics is that the employment rate for EU citizens in a different member state is actually higher that of locals , (which is particularly impressive considering many go to another member state to retire). Is there something magic about people from other member states or is it simply the case that they face less legal barriers to employment than those outside the EU? If people are waiting for years for their asylum claims to be processed then you would expect a few percentiles of difference in employment rates for those outside the European union.

As for the difference in employment between men and women from outside the EU, muslims are having more chilldren (as those on the far right are so fond of reminding us) so one would expect the amount of women in work to be lower.
 
I am sure there will be difficulties, conflicts and confusion created by taking in the refugees, but it is the right thing to do ethically. If it is managed well, it will improve European/middle east relations. Europe shouldn't have to take all the burden. The USA, Canada and the more prosperous middle eastern nations should be pressured into doing more.
 
Red_Dave said:
Well whats really telling about those statistics is that the employment rate for EU citizens in a different member state is actually higher that of locals , (which is particularly impressive considering many go to another member state to retire).
Click to expand...
Perhaps you missed the "age 20-64 years" part of the statistics. I don't find it so surprising, it's probably higher educated people who go through the hassle of looking for a job abroad.

Red_Dave said:
As for the difference in employment between men and women from outside the EU, muslims are having more chilldren (as those on the far right are so fond of reminding us) so one would expect the amount of women in work to be lower.
Click to expand...
Those on the far left are also quite fond of reminding us, as a reason to import people. Nice twist you gave it by the way, I would expect more women to work as two pay checks make children a bit more affordable.
 
I am from the EU and we should accept refugees.

That being said there is of course a few notes on the side.

- We should firstly identify for each individual if they actually are real refugees. This may not be easy or even in some/many case turn out to be impossible, but we should still try. A refugee is someone who seeks temporary shelter for the sole purpose of finding a safe haven. And this, and no more, is what we should provide them with.
- We should accept refugees and as soon as the situation back home normalises again we should send them back. I hear people here that are already talking about integration. This I do not agree with.
- We should consider setting up refugee camps over there and safeguard them with our own armies. This is easier, quicker and cheaper. While we are at it we could also utilise this army to stop the nonsense that is going on there right now.

Joey
 
Natan said:
So I read places like Gawker and stumbled upon news of John Oliver and a Last Week Tonight segment on the refugee situation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umqvYhb3wf4

The propaganda was horrible and the amount of naivety and the degree to which people from the US were uninformed is horrible. Now I know that John Oliver also attracts a certain audience and that it is not a good view of what goes on in the minds of Americans (and other non Europeans). Not that this site is fairly representing the general populace around the world and the different political views, but I would like to ask the following question: are you pro or against accepting all the current refugees?
Click to expand...

I think its disgusting but unsurprising how Fox News would use five year old footage as anti-refugee propaganda. Of course, 90% of Fox News viewers will never know the truth, nor would they care.
 
Natan said:
You didn't vote although I know which option you'd take. Very naive, "solve" demographic problems by importing people.

Theory: immigrants will work with fresh new blood and their taxes will pay the pensions of our ageing population.
Reality: pensions are reduced to pay all sorts of benefits to immigrants, using homes for the elderly is already under consideration in Germany and in practice in UK to solve the immigrant housing crisis.
Click to expand...

Coupled with a lack of assimilation to the local culture, customs and laws, and it'll be Islamization of EU. If the EU is going to take all these immigrants from the Middle East, they need to do a better job of assimilating them to the local culture, customs and laws.

Otherwise EU isn't going to be EU for very much longer, and that'd be a real loss for humanity, given its long and rich history. All we have to do is see what Islam does to culture they don't agree with: they destroy it.
 
Last edited:
eohrnberger said:
Coupled wit a lack of assimilation to the local culture, customs and laws, and it'll be Islamization of EU. If the EU is going to take all these immigrants from the Middle East, they need to do a better job of assimilating them to the local culture, customs and laws.
Click to expand...

Greetings, Erik. :2wave:

IMO, they will fight assimilation. Their entire concept of how life is meant to be lived is too different from ours to expect mind change, and the overpowering number of them heading to Europe is mind-blowing. It makes me wonder what Merkel was thinking when you look at some of the rules she made for other EU countries, like denying their requests to close their borders. Many countries in the EU are already in bad financial shape - Greece was only the canary in the gold mine - and look at how that was handled, and it's not over yet. Banks are looking out for their best interests, not the countries involved. What strange times we live in! :shock: Rome fell when they were over-run by hoards of people. . . will the EU escape that fate?
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Erik. :2wave:

IMO, they will fight assimilation. Their entire concept of how life is meant to be lived is too different from ours to expect mind change, and the overpowering number of them heading to Europe is mind-blowing. It makes me wonder what Merkel was thinking when you look at some of the rules she made for other EU countries, like denying their requests to close their borders. Many countries in the EU are already in bad financial shape - Greece was only the canary in the gold mine - and look at how that was handled, and it's not over yet. Banks are looking out for their best interests, not the countries involved. What strange times we live in! :shock: Rome fell when they were over-run by hoards of people. . . will the EU escape that fate?
Click to expand...

Greetings, Polgara. :2wave:

No idea if EU is going to survive with it's history and culture in tact or not. Would have to be able to look into the crystal ball about 30 years into the future.

All I can say for sure is that I certainly hope so, as it would be a great loss to humanity if EU's history and culture were lost. The most Islamic extremists that move in, cause radicalization, the less the immigrant populations assimilate and within a generation or two still believe themselves to not be from their present country, the more difficult it's going to be.

With the millions of Lain American immigrants, both legal and illegal coming into the US, the US also faces a similar problem, but seems that our advantage is in these immigrant's assimilation within a generation or two. That may be our saving grace, but could easily go the other way as well.
 
Europe should not have to accept invading armies of Muslim men from all over the middle east and Africa between the ages of 18 and 30.

if this were an actual refugee situation, the demographic would not be skewed so heavily towards that particular age and gender..
 
It's obviously a blessing. Who doesn't want to be enriched with millions of moral and upright immigrants? Think about all the astrophysicists and pediatricians and engineers in those boats arriving on the shores of Europe, who are going to save Europe from its demographic crisis while totally not altering and degrading the host culture!

Only a racist would point out that all the European cities with significant Muslim populations are remarkably violent and down-trodden, and that the entire Islamic world consists of brutal regimes without regard for the rule of law.
 
Err. I think you forgot the sarcasm font.

Alban said:
It's obviously a blessing. Who doesn't want to be enriched with millions of moral and upright immigrants? Think about all the astrophysicists and pediatricians and engineers in those boats arriving on the shores of Europe, who are going to save Europe from its demographic crisis while totally not altering and degrading the host culture!

Only a racist would point out that all the European cities with significant Muslim populations are remarkably violent and down-trodden, and that the entire Islamic world consists of brutal regimes without regard for the rule of law.
Click to expand...
:mrgreen:
 
eohrnberger said:
Greetings, Polgara. :2wave:

No idea if EU is going to survive with it's history and culture in tact or not. Would have to be able to look into the crystal ball about 30 years into the future.

All I can say for sure is that I certainly hope so, as it would be a great loss to humanity if EU's history and culture were lost. The most Islamic extremists that move in, cause radicalization, the less the immigrant populations assimilate and within a generation or two still believe themselves to not be from their present country, the more difficult it's going to be.

With the millions of Lain American immigrants, both legal and illegal coming into the US, the US also faces a similar problem, but seems that our advantage is in these immigrant's assimilation within a generation or two. That may be our saving grace, but could easily go the other way as well.
Click to expand...

Methinks we're going to see how it turns out a lot sooner than that, unfortunately, if we look at the world-wide time-table from the recent past as a guide. And I did hope to visit Paris one day as a tourist, darn it!
:mrgreen:
 
Gardener said:
Europe should not have to accept invading armies of Muslim men from all over the middle east and Africa between the ages of 18 and 30.

if this were an actual refugee situation, the demographic would not be skewed so heavily towards that particular age and gender..
Click to expand...

Greetings, Gardener. :2wave:

:agree: .. :applaud
 
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