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Is this hypocritical?

Is this hypocritical?

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GunFora

GunFora

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Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
 
I don't think it's hypocritical. It's kind of a double standard, but nothing hypocritical. It's obviously more difficult for the man to decide because it isn't his body. If it was the other way around and men got pregnant, we wouldn't even be having an abortion or a birth control debate. When it comes to women, traditionally, people want to be more involved in dictating.
 
This is a pretty terrible example of a hypothetical scenario. Hypocrisy requires one person or entity to hold both views simultaneously. As such, you would need to show someone who is willing to declare a woman to be a champion of a woman's right to choose simply because she chose to abort for purely personal reasons. Finding someone like that is unlikely on its own, not to mention that you would need that same person to also believe that a man is a dead beat father simply because he does not want to be a father.
 
Shadowless said:
If it was the other way around and men got pregnant, we wouldn't even be having an abortion or a birth control debate. When it comes to women, traditionally, people want to be more involved in dictating.
Click to expand...

This is a pretty interesting point actually. Men have experienced a much larger amount of freedom to make their own decisions without repercussion or demand from the government, see extra-marital affairs for much of human history.
 
MrT said:
This is a pretty terrible example of a hypothetical scenario. Hypocrisy requires one person or entity to hold both views simultaneously. As such, you would need to show someone who is willing to declare a woman to be a champion of a woman's right to choose simply because she chose to abort for purely personal reasons. Finding someone like that is unlikely on its own, not to mention that you would need that same person to also believe that a man is a dead beat father simply because he does not want to be a father.
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what I did when I put down the scenarios.
 
GunFora said:
Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
Click to expand...

No, that's not hypocritical. That's simply an example of how women should get to choose what the heck goes on in their own bodies. Women are women and men are men...and just as we have to make allowances that there are things that men can do that women can't (or shouldn't), there are things that women do that men simply can't (as most happily-married men will attest).

If the man isn't man enough to take proper precautions (i.e. lets the wrong head make his decisions) and won't take responsibility for his lack of what should be common sense, I've no sympathy for him.
 
MrT said:
This is a pretty interesting point actually. Men have experienced a much larger amount of freedom to make their own decisions without repercussion or demand from the government, see extra-marital affairs for much of human history.
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Yup. It's been this way for the history of the human race. Women are seen as secondary all the way from local tribes forcing women into child birth, to sexual/marital slavery, to the modern patriarchy we see today.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
No, that's not hypocritical. That's simply an example of how women should get to choose what the heck goes on in their own bodies. Women are women and men are men...and just as we have to make allowances that there are things that men can do that women can't (or shouldn't), there are things that women do that men simply can't (as most happily-married men will attest).
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Oh...I thought she did that when she got pregnant (not dismissing the man's responsibility here).

Glen Contrarian said:
If the man isn't man enough to take proper precautions (i.e. lets the wrong head make his decisions) and won't take responsibility for his lack of what should be common sense, I've no sympathy for him.
Click to expand...

Oh....but it appears you just dismissed the woman's responsibility. Nuff said. :doh
 
GunFora said:
Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
Click to expand...

Yes it is.
 
GunFora said:
Oh...I thought she did that when she got pregnant (not dismissing the man's responsibility here).



Oh....but it appears you just dismissed the woman's responsibility. Nuff said. :doh
Click to expand...

What a man does with his own body is his own responsibility and his own right. What a woman does with her own body is her own responsibility and her own RIGHT. If the man knows that he wouldn't want the woman to have an abortion if she got pregnant, then HE should not have unprotected sex with her. If you'll think about it, this is very much in line with conservative and even libertarian thought.
 
GunFora said:
Oh...I thought she did that when she got pregnant (not dismissing the man's responsibility here).



Oh....but it appears you just dismissed the woman's responsibility. Nuff said. :doh
Click to expand...

Apparently a man has to be responsible for the woman's body as well as his own. You're not following the logic.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
What a man does with his own body is his own responsibility and his own right. What a woman does with her own body is her own responsibility and her own RIGHT. If the man knows that he wouldn't want the woman to have an abortion if she got pregnant, then HE should not have unprotected sex with her. If you'll think about it, this is very much in line with conservative and even libertarian thought.
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Ahh, but doesn't the man have any rights when it comes to his unborn child?
 
It's only hypocritical if the SAME people who championed the abortion seeking mother denounced the unwilling soon to be dad.



Now, me? I believe that should women HAVE the right to CHOOSE to abort or not, then men should have the right to choose to support or not. You see, it's like this. If a man WANTS the child, but the woman doesn't, tough **** for the man. He can't FORCE her to have the child...that's akin to slavery. And since that is true, and most pro choicers believe it is, then...

A woman can't FORCE a man to support a child he didn't want her to have in the first place, because that is akin to slavery.

....the above is also true.


At least, if remaining logically consistent is important.



Which it is, to me.
 
GunFora said:
Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
Click to expand...

Its not hypocritical or a double standard. First off, the entire premise is flawed because no one is out celebrating and "championing" a woman who makes the choice to have an abortion. Most people who are "Pro-Choice" are not proponents of abortion, but rather pro leaving it to the woman and her doctor to decide. Most women that make the choice to have an abortion do so after agonizing about the decision and don't do so in a celebratory/party atmosphere.

As to the second point...its completely different because the male does carry the child. If the man carried the child, it would be a different issue.
 
GunFora said:
Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
Click to expand...

Im confused.. This is the same exact thing but different sexes. Whats the question?
 
tres borrachos said:
Apparently a man has to be responsible for the woman's body as well as his own. You're not following the logic.
Click to expand...

No Tres...you are missing the logic. Each party is responsible for their own body and has no right to voice over the other.
 
disneydude said:
No Tres...you are missing the logic. Each party is responsible for their own body and has no right to voice over the other.
Click to expand...

Then contrary to what Glen said, a man has no responsibility to have protected sex with a woman since she's responsible for her own body.

How's things in California today?
 
Shadowless said:
Yup. It's been this way for the history of the human race. Women are seen as secondary all the way from local tribes forcing women into child birth, to sexual/marital slavery, to the modern patriarchy we see today.
Click to expand...

I enjoy how liberals still see all this patriarchy around them. Does anyone know where this patriarchy is taking place? No, but it the word patriarchy sounds cool and liberals enjoy saying it.
 
GunFora said:
Ahh, but doesn't the man have any rights when it comes to his unborn child?
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No. But he has equal rights once it is born. (or should. Fortunately child custody is becoming more and more fair towards fathers. It's not there yet but that is the trend).

He and the state legally may not violate a woman's rights while she is pregnant, she hasnt committed any crime by getting pregnant, so there would be no due process either.
 
GunFora said:
Oh....but it appears you just dismissed the woman's responsibility.
Click to expand...

When? What is irresponsible on the part of the woman? Are you assuming she didnt use birth control?

Are you saying that only complete abstinence is "acting responsibly" for either the man or the woman?
 
GunFora said:
Scenario A: A woman gets pregnant and decides she doesn't want to be a mother - she's considered a champion of a woman's right to choose.

Scenario B: A man gets a woman pregnant and decides he doesn't want to be a father - he's considered to be a "dead-beat dad".
Click to expand...



Ah, I think you would have to place the broadest possible definition on "hypocrite" for this.

There has always been a double standard, men do not conceive nor nurture, cannot breast feed etc. So the start of the question is out of reality and seems to poke at the woman who "chooses".

Further, a woman who chooses not to have a child is not a champion of women's rights outside of these forums, which are myth and magic. Most women who abort choose also to keep it secret. Many suffer years of depression and guilt.
Nor can any man begin to weigh the onus(s) of raising that child, especially alone.

The guy, on the other hand, was presumably willing to take that chance when he planted the seed, should have been raised about what a man's responsibilities are, and because to this day men make more than women, should be and is obligated to financially support that child.

This is just a back door attack on abortion. Sorry, but the battle is over, done, will never be refought, and women won.
 
GunFora said:
But it's his child just as much as hers. That carries no weight?
Click to expand...

Only in as much as he can compel by discussion and agreement with the woman.

Certainly something to consider before having sex. And act on accordingly or be aware of the consequences.
 
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