View Poll Results: Should it be allowed?

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  • I'm a right leaning yes

    3 13.04%
  • I'm a right leaning no

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  • I'm a left leaning yes

    14 60.87%
  • I'm a left leaning no

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Thread: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    I voted I'm left leaning because on this particular issue I am left leaning.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  2. #32
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by judith1 View Post
    Do what you feel in your heart to be right-for you'll be criticized anyway. Eleanor Rossevelt
    Im not right or left...

    SSM should be legal.... There is no way to support suppressing a right or liberty of the people that does not infringe upon the rights/liberties of others.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    1) Where is the problem? Let the people work out how they want it and put it in a contract.
    A contract enforced or disputed in a court... meaning that the government is going to have to say something about it. And when someone dies and two people show up with contracts, claiming to be that person's spouse, the government will have to decide who was really married to whom. Your "contract" fallback is woefully insufficient to cover the legal issues that marriage deals with.

    2) Of course, if you do not mind the government systematically breaking the constitution, I guess one could take that position.
    I don't think you have any idea what does or does not "break" the constitution.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  4. #34
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    There is no way to support suppressing a right or liberty of the people that does not infringe upon the rights/liberties of others.
    Marriage is not, and can never be considered, a 'right'. 'Rights' cannot be 'granted' nor 'taken away' and certainly are not bestowed by man-made institutions; they are protected, but not derived from governments. The most obvious 'right' is one's 'right to life', categorically and demonstrably different to a supposed 'right to marriage', a fiction of the campaigns of the last few years.

    We do not vote for or about rights in a constitutional republic; they transcend popular opinion as a safeguard against majoritarianism and totalitarianism. They are inalienable and indisputable.
    It was not part of their blood,
    It came to them very late,
    With long arrears to make good,
    When the Saxon began to hate.

  5. #35
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavendish View Post
    Marriage is not, and can never be considered, a 'right'. 'Rights' cannot be 'granted' nor 'taken away' and certainly are not bestowed by man-made institutions; they are protected, but not derived from governments. The most obvious 'right' is one's 'right to life', categorically and demonstrably different to a supposed 'right to marriage', a fiction of the campaigns of the last few years.

    We do not vote for or about rights in a constitutional republic; they transcend popular opinion as a safeguard against majoritarianism and totalitarianism. They are inalienable and indisputable.
    Thousands of years of marriage is pretty good indication that yes, it IS a Right. In fact marriage has been around far longer than any other recognized Right both in world history and in our Constitution.

    As for that "fiction of the last few years"...how long would you say "last few years is"? In actuality marriage was deemed a Right long before SSM was even slightly talked about. In several court cases.

    And yes, Rights CAN be taken away. Don't believe me? Ask a felon, such as myself, whether they have a gun legally in their home. Also ask a felon, such as myself, whether or not they can vote while incarcerated. Once you are done with that go over to someplace like Iran or even Germany and ask if they have a Right to Free Speech where they have banned any talk in support of homosexuals.

    Your argument here is one of naivety of how the world actually works.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  6. #36
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cavendish View Post
    Marriage is not, and can never be considered, a 'right'. 'Rights' cannot be 'granted' nor 'taken away' and certainly are not bestowed by man-made institutions; they are protected, but not derived from governments. The most obvious 'right' is one's 'right to life', categorically and demonstrably different to a supposed 'right to marriage', a fiction of the campaigns of the last few years.

    We do not vote for or about rights in a constitutional republic; they transcend popular opinion as a safeguard against majoritarianism and totalitarianism. They are inalienable and indisputable.
    And yet, the courts have legally recognized the "rights" of a spouse in various legal transactions concerning their partner. If marriage is not a "right" then why are these "rights" legally recognized? And if they are to be legally recognized, shouldn't they be legally recognized for marriages in all forms?

  7. #37
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    A contract enforced or disputed in a court... meaning that the government is going to have to say something about it. And when someone dies and two people show up with contracts, claiming to be that person's spouse, the government will have to decide who was really married to whom. Your "contract" fallback is woefully insufficient to cover the legal issues that marriage deals with.



    I don't think you have any idea what does or does not "break" the constitution.
    We had a situation here recently, where two women came to court after their husband had died. The country did not have a law that prescribed how to rule and there was no contract, but the court had to decide how to deal with poligam inheritance and pensions or health insurance. A contract would have made that much easier. I cannot understand your conservatism. Are you afraid of change and not being within your peer group's paradigm? You sound like Peter's grandfather warning of the wolf.

  8. #38
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Thousands of years of marriage is pretty good indication that yes, it IS a Right. In fact marriage has been around far longer than any other recognized Right both in world history and in our Constitution.
    Ironically, your argumentation here represents a classic 'appeal to antiquity'. I say ironically because the conception of marriage of which you speak never included same-sex couples.

    'Rights' cannot be repealed or restrained, we possess them by virtue of our humanity. Unless you believe that one's 'right to life' hinges upon the courts of the day.

    'Marriage' requires governmental licensing, and the subsequent conference of associated privileges. It is not a 'right', but an institution of Man, an institution that has represented the backbone of Western civilization.

    all men are ... endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    And yes, Rights CAN be taken away. Don't believe me? Ask a felon, such as myself, whether they have a gun legally in their home. Also ask a felon, such as myself, whether or not they can vote while incarcerated. Once you are done with that go over to someplace like Iran or even Germany and ask if they have a Right to Free Speech where they have banned any talk in support of homosexuals.
    Classic conflation. The entire premise of classical republicanism is that inalienable rights cannot be conceded to the sovereign or ruler. 'Voting rights' are not inalienable rights but privileges granted by a legal system under the social contract.

    I recommend a reading of Locke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Your argument here is one of naivety of how the world actually works.
    Ad hominem.
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    It came to them very late,
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    When the Saxon began to hate.

  9. #39
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    We had a situation here recently, where two women came to court after their husband had died. The country did not have a law that prescribed how to rule and there was no contract, but the court had to decide how to deal with poligam inheritance and pensions or health insurance. A contract would have made that much easier.
    So the actual solution is to have laws addressing polygamy, not to gut the existing laws and make a lot of people's positions more precarious.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  10. #40
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    Re: Should same-sex marriage be allowed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No Right should be left up to mob mentality. It was mob mentality that kept slavery going for so long. It was mob mentality that allowed Jim Crow laws to last so long. It was mob mentality that allowed miscegenation laws. It was mob mentality that led to a lot of black people being strung up in trees. It was mob mentality that destroyed many many civilizations.

    I don't want to live in a mob mentality state/country that allows restrictions on Rights.
    States get to restrict our 2nd Amendment rights.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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