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  • A clerk that refuses to issue a marriage license to a same sex couple because they are a Christian.

    50 92.59%
  • A clerk that refuses to issue a permit to a slaughterhouse because they are a Buddhist.

    50 92.59%
  • A clerk that refuses to issue a liquor license because they are a Muslim.

    52 96.30%
  • A clerk that refuses to issue a drilling permit because they are a wiccan.

    49 90.74%
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Thread: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

  1. #11
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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    None of the above if there is someone else who can cover for him/her. If he/she is the ultimate decision maker than I think he/she should be removed or transferred.

    I have 10 people who work for me and there have been times and different reasons that they can't/won't work with a customer. I get someone else to cover. It isn't a big deal.
    That is a bit different though. Yes, sometimes a customer can be difficult and its best to get someone else to deal with them. However, in the cases specified in the poll you have people that are refusing to do their job. Its not a case of a difficult customer, but rather a difficult employee. Every job I ever had you did what you did whatever your position entailed and if you didn't, you found another job.
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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That is a bit different though. Yes, sometimes a customer can be difficult and its best to get someone else to deal with them. However, in the cases specified in the poll you have people that are refusing to do their job. Its not a case of a difficult customer, but rather a difficult employee. Every job I ever had you did what you did whatever your position entailed and if you didn't, you found another job.
    How is it different? I'm the manager, the customer expects x service, and it's my right to decide which employee fulfills the customer needs. I didn't say anything about a difficult customer.

    Unless "being the only person in the division to give out slaughterhouse licenses" is clearly stated in the job description, any smart and reasonable manager will get someone else to do it. Why would you force a good employee to do something that you know will upset him?
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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    A poultry processing plant contracted with my last employer for a large consulting/Six Sigma project. It was my account in my territory. I refused to go anywhere near the place. My manager gave the account to another rep. The customer never knew. The other rep was perfectly capable of handling the work. Where is the problem?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    How is it different? I'm the manager, the customer expects x service, and it's my right to decide which employee fulfills the customer needs. I didn't say anything about a difficult customer.

    Unless "being the only person in the division to give out slaughterhouse licenses" is clearly stated in the job description, any smart and reasonable manager will get someone else to do it. Why would you force a good employee to do something that you know will upset him?
    It is their job, that's why. If you are a Muslim and you believe any type of alcohol consumption is a sin, then don't get a job as a clerk working for the county department that issues liquor licenses. Similarly, if you are a fundamentalist Christian that believes same sex marriage is a sin, then don't work for the county clerk's office where you will be required to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. In both cases we are talking about a duty that is fundamental to their job.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    A poultry processing plant contracted with my last employer for a large consulting/Six Sigma project. It was my account in my territory. I refused to go anywhere near the place. My manager gave the account to another rep. The customer never knew. The other rep was perfectly capable of handling the work. Where is the problem?
    That is apples and oranges. You are comparing a non-compete issue with the refusal to do something that is fundamental to your job.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Every job I ever had you did what you did whatever your position entailed and if you didn't, you found another job.
    I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb, and maybe if you're employed in a capacity where you're easily replaced you feel that it's a necessity you'd toe any line, but I wouldn't consider it to be universal.

    I've refused to work with clients, and I've had clients refuse to work with me.

    In both cases we're talking about rare instances but when they pop up it all comes down to pretty basic value judgements.

    If I'm an above average contributor who has received glowing reviews from clients, in a job that requires specialized industry and corporate knowledge, and I tend to get along well within the corporate culture, is it REALLY worth it to go through the time, effort, and expense to fire and replace me?

    Over something like this?

    Maybe it is, and if you're looking for a reason to let someone go this could certainly present a manager with a lucky opportunity to do so.

    But if you're talking about a strong member of a team with just this one "weakness" it seems to me that finding a work-around would be the best course of action.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    It is their job, that's why. If you are a Muslim and you believe any type of alcohol consumption is a sin, then don't get a job as a clerk working for the county department that issues liquor licenses. Similarly, if you are a fundamentalist Christian that believes same sex marriage is a sin, then don't work for the county clerk's office where you will be required to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples. In both cases we are talking about a duty that is fundamental to their job.
    It's their job, says who? The department is set up to give out licenses. It isn't up to you to decide which employee provides you with your license. It's up to his/her manager.
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That is apples and oranges. You are comparing a non-compete issue with the refusal to do something that is fundamental to your job.
    It isn't apples to oranges. It's the same thing. 100%. You apparently can't see it.

    It isn't your call who does what. Why would you want to force an employee to do something he/she doesn't want to do?
    Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It's their job, says who? The department is set up to give out licenses. It isn't up to you to decide which employee provides you with your license. It's up to his/her manager.
    Ok, what if its a small county then and there is one clerk?

    Moreover, would you hold the same opinion if a clerk refused to issue drivers licenses to women or refused to issue marriage licenses to interracial couples? What would be the difference?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Which of the following hypothetical public employees should be fired?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It's their job, says who? The department is set up to give out licenses. It isn't up to you to decide which employee provides you with your license. It's up to his/her manager.
    To be fair, and you'll see above that I'm agreeing with you in principal, in most municipalities it's the town clerk's job to process the marriage license and in most municipalities I've lived in there is a (singular) town clerk.

    If the only option for the town is to either replace the clerk or undertake the expense to hire an assistant with no religious objections to anything (assuming that doing so is even financially feasible) I think you have to fire and replace the clerk.

    If there is a stable of assistant clerks and the head clerk can farm out the work based on each subordinate's personal preferences then, sure, as you say, it is his or her right as the manager to do so.

    But if the manager is the manager is the assistant, is the admin, is the intern....

    And you're the mayor...

    You gotta ****can the clerk and find someone who will do the job you need done.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

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