View Poll Results: Would we as a country be better of if there had been no slavery here?

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  • Yes

    16 88.89%
  • No

    2 11.11%
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Thread: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

  1. #31
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    I was thinking about that as I wrote it actually. All 8 of my great grand parents come from Poland (Prussian region actually), had it not been for the Holocaust they would not have come here, at least not all of them would have.
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Answer: yes.

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    OK would we have won WWII faster if Spiderman and Superman were Allied Commandos?
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  3. #33
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    The answer is pretty obvious isn't it?

    Some people would be better off, some people would be worse off. Simple.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Obama's ancestors weren't slaves. His black half came from Africa.

    Not sure how to answer your question. My family didn't own slaves. They were poor white immigrants.
    Same here. Somehow that doesn't make us any less guilty.

  5. #35
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    The answer is pretty obvious isn't it?

    Some people would be better off, some people would be worse off. Simple.
    That kind of defeats the exercise in consideration. For instance, back when I was 18 I sawed off a couple of my fingers at work with a table saw. They were put back on, but since the blade went thru a couple of joints they don't operate the same and are a little shorter. BUT, I wouldn't go back and not have that happen. At the time I was on my way to being a field service tech for Canon copiers. That means doing repairs on office equipment. I likely would have hated it in the long run. Instead they rescinded their offer and after the cast and pins were removed I fell into my current field of auto repair. So not all bad things that happen have all negative outcomes.

    Let's take someone like Will Smith for instance. Young black guy does some rap, has a hit TV show, goes on to do movies and seems to be an all around good guy. What would life be like for him if there had not been slavery here? Would he have been here at all? Would he have been a sheepherder somewhere? Or would he still have been successful because of the kind of person he is?

  6. #36
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    OK would we have won WWII faster if Spiderman and Superman were Allied Commandos?
    Spiderman could really only take on about thirty or forty people, which is fine if you need someone to have your back in a pinch, but he's hardly a threat to the 3rd Reich. Basically, if both Spiderman and Superman both invaded the beaches of Normandy at the same time, Superman would have punched out Hitler (not kill, Superman doesn't kill) while Spiderman was still marching a mile out from the coast. So in fact, WWII would have been won pretty much from the moment Superman decided to enter the conflict.

    My position on history being objectively better had we never had slavery comes from the fact that I see many more cons than pros. Besides the moral stain on the country and the racial divide, we also have a cultural divide between a region of the country that permanently identifies itself in terms of the civil war, and the rest of the country. While the Cold War presented us a platform to be a serious world leader, without the Cold War the paralysis and division in the United States has turned on itself and we see the rest of the world slowly moving on without us. And yes, I blame slavery for this.

    Without slavery, though, our music would have sucked a lot more. Black influence in music is definitely a check in the positive column.

    My take on atrocities in history is not a kneejerk one, however. If we had no war or atrocities from the beginning of human civilization, I don't think there would be a single recognizable aspect of human civilization now, and that is simply too far outside my scope to guess whether that would be better or worse. As a counter to the "slavery was bad" position, I would present an atrocity that was, in the long term, positive: the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nuclear weapons were always inevitable. One way or another, humans were going to get them, and the first time we used them in an attack on people was when only one country possessed the weapons, and they were just "wimpy" atom bombs instead of the 500kt-1mt monsters we have today. Even still, the world was so abjectly horrified by their use that no one has used them since, in spite of the fact that today pretty much everybody and their dog has at least a few. Be sure to knock on wood.

    My position on the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki being even remotely a positive thing even in the very long term is not one I air IRL, to be honest. It's more than a little cheeky for me to say that it's okay for them to be bombed so we could be spared from nuclear annihilation ourselves.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 06-29-15 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #37
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    That kind of defeats the exercise in consideration. For instance, back when I was 18 I sawed off a couple of my fingers at work with a table saw. They were put back on, but since the blade went thru a couple of joints they don't operate the same and are a little shorter. BUT, I wouldn't go back and not have that happen. At the time I was on my way to being a field service tech for Canon copiers. That means doing repairs on office equipment. I likely would have hated it in the long run. Instead they rescinded their offer and after the cast and pins were removed I fell into my current field of auto repair. So not all bad things that happen have all negative outcomes.

    Let's take someone like Will Smith for instance. Young black guy does some rap, has a hit TV show, goes on to do movies and seems to be an all around good guy. What would life be like for him if there had not been slavery here? Would he have been here at all? Would he have been a sheepherder somewhere? Or would he still have been successful because of the kind of person he is?
    If we did not have slavery in this country then Will Smith would have never been born anywhere. His parents and everyone dating back to the first of his family who were the children of the first people brought here on slave ships would have never been born. I do not think anyone voting YES realizes that every single individual whose ancestors were slaves in this country would have never been born anywhere in this world due to the fact it was because of slavery that their ancestors met in the first place.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #38
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by tech30528 View Post
    That kind of defeats the exercise in consideration. For instance, back when I was 18 I sawed off a couple of my fingers at work with a table saw. They were put back on, but since the blade went thru a couple of joints they don't operate the same and are a little shorter. BUT, I wouldn't go back and not have that happen. At the time I was on my way to being a field service tech for Canon copiers. That means doing repairs on office equipment. I likely would have hated it in the long run. Instead they rescinded their offer and after the cast and pins were removed I fell into my current field of auto repair. So not all bad things that happen have all negative outcomes.

    Let's take someone like Will Smith for instance. Young black guy does some rap, has a hit TV show, goes on to do movies and seems to be an all around good guy. What would life be like for him if there had not been slavery here? Would he have been here at all? Would he have been a sheepherder somewhere? Or would he still have been successful because of the kind of person he is?
    And questions on such hypotheticals are an exercise in futility. If, somewhere in history, a different sperm won the race then maybe we'd have hoverboards or a cure for cancer. Maybe polio would never have been eradicated. Or maybe Star Wars would never have existed. History is chaos theory. A long sequence of butterfly effects with nigh unpredictable outcomes. Even the smallest variance could have made life better or worse for all of us, nevermind something as huge as slavery not existing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If we did not have slavery in this country then Will Smith would have never been born anywhere. His parents and everyone dating back to the first of his family who were the children of the first people brought here on slave ships would have never been born. I do not think anyone voting YES realizes that every single individual whose ancestors were slaves in this country would have never been born anywhere in this world due to the fact it was because of slavery that their ancestors met in the first place.
    And who's to say you'd have necessarily been born? Without slavery your family might have died out.
    "Education is the only thing you can do that will change society. Everything else is just a band-aid." - Jacqueline de Chollet
    "Boys will be boys. But boys will not be president." - Ronald Regan
    "The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy." - Donald J. Trump

  9. #39
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Obama's ancestors weren't slaves. His black half came from Africa.
    While that is true it is still most likely that he would have never been born. A large segment of Africans were removed from various countries and tribes throughout Africa thus making it possible for Barrack Obama Sr's ancestors to meet.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  10. #40
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    Re: Would we all be better off if we had never had slaves?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilly View Post
    And who's to say you'd have necessarily been born? Without slavery your family might have died out.
    That is most likely true.This country would be radically different today if you took out slavery and the things that resulted from slavery. Which means many people would not exist today.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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