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Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?


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The kids were with their parents. Probably supposedly with the intent of seeing their parents 'doing the Lord's Work.'

And yes, belief in Christ is beautiful, even for us less than perfect. :)

Well. Everyone can't be Ron Burgandy.

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Here you go again with the attitude, will. In all the engagements I have had with you on DP, I have yet to recall a single instance when you did not quickly descend into an attitude of arrogance. You wanna preach to me about your superiority?

Ad Hominem? That was fast.

But alright - where did I claim to be superior to you?

Why are you unable to have a rational, attitude-free discussion with me?

That is, in fact, precisely how I have been responding to you. Thus far the only one to get emotional is.... well, you.

Because you disagree with me?

:) Hard to debate with people who agree with you.

Because you see my views as a "threat" to you?

:shrug: Not really.

1. Stop splitting hairs about my quote

:shrug: you said what you said and what you said was incorrect. If you now wish to change what you said, well, as I've already pointed out to you, that's fine.

Christianity is dying in the United States. Get over it already. The burden is on Christians to figure out why.

Actually I have some fairly good ideas why, some of which I have already shared with you.

2. Nope, the West is rejecting religion because they realize that reason trumps religion, not this whole "sin" construct that you are preaching.

That is incorrect. Firstly, religious thinkers have been among our most rational thinkers. Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.

It's exposing itself as being antiquated. And the internet is helping that process along.

:raises eyebrow: The internet is a global phenomenon, and as has already been pointed out to you, Christianity is growing globally.

In fact, dare I say that the internet is one of the single worst things that has ever happened to religion. :) You ever watched some of those videos about religion? There are reasons that religion is getting CRUSHED by those videos.

I've watched lots of those video's about religion. If that is why people are walking away from faith, then it's not the video, it's the poor public education system.

3. More Christlike attitude. :roll:

How would you know?

Seriously, man, I might take your comments more seriously if you would stop with the ATTITUDE.

The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.

You wanna worship Jesus? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that. But the minute that you try to push your religion on us, in the form of laws and other policies, we will stand up to you. Fiercely.

No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.

4. To **** on LGBTs and their perfectly normal and natural desires is hate speech, pure and simple

To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.

Protip: LGBT intolerance is a major problem with Millennials, and it is a significant reason why they are running from religion in droves.

Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.
 
1. Which principles? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Blessed are the poor"? Or "put to death anyone who works on the Sabbath" and "a virgin woman who is raped must marry her rapist and never divorce her"? Two of these beliefs I have respect for. Two of them I do not. All four are found in the Bible.

That's interesting. So, for all your protestations you claim to have respect for Christianity, but not Judaism.

2. A point of clarification here--what objectors? But if I'm reading it right, yeah, where is the outrage against straight couples having sex outside of marriage?

You'll find plenty of opposition to it - have you missed the debates over abstinence-based sex ed? The claims that single-parenthood is far from something to be celebrated, but something to be mourned? You'll find no celebration of the hookup culture in the Church.

And what about divorce, which Jesus clearly condemned in every case except for cheating?

Woefully missing, outside of some of the more conservative Protestant and Catholic Church. The Mainline denominations in this country failed dramatically to uphold this very clear teaching of Jesus, I agree.

3. My previous post contained a study that already answered your question. And you call it a "bummer"; I call it liberation. People are learning that they don't have to answer to an invisible figure just to behave as decent human beings. They can just choose to behave decently just because it is the rational thing to do.

Now that's an interesting claim. On what basis is it the rational thing to do?
 
Ad Hominem? That was fast.

But alright - where did I claim to be superior to you?



That is, in fact, precisely how I have been responding to you. Thus far the only one to get emotional is.... well, you.



Hard to debate with people who agree with you.



Not really.



you said what you said and what you said was incorrect. If you now wish to change what you said, well, as I've already pointed out to you, that's fine.



Actually I have some fairly good ideas why, some of which I have already shared with you.



That is incorrect. Firstly, religious thinkers have been among our most rational thinkers. Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.



:raises eyebrow: The internet is a global phenomenon, and as has already been pointed out to you, Christianity is growing globally.



I've watched lots of those video's about religion. If that is why people are walking away from faith, then it's not the video, it's the poor public education system.



How would you know?



The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.



No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.



To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.



Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.

Dude, could you at least *try* the outline format? Spamming quote tags like that makes your posts harder to digest as a whole.

1. You start off immediately with the superiority complex. Well done. That was fast. You are oblivious to it, but to those whom you target with it, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
2. Religious thinkers = some of the most rational ones, eh? Can you please provide some examples of this?
Now I am going to briefly break the outline, because this line deserves some special attention.

Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.

3. There's so much wrong with this crap I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I'd like your personal definition of "postmodernism." And your second sentence is EXACTLY the arrogance and dismissiveness I was talking about earlier. Protip: Learn to properly analyze your opponent so that you may have a chance to critique him. Or as Jesus said, get the plank out of your own eye so that you can see the specks in others'.
4. Christianity, as a percentage of world population growth, has stagnated. These are facts, will, cold, hard facts. Do you accept or deny these facts?
5. Wait, are you finally conceding that Christianity is on the decline in America? Thank you! And LOL, you think the public education system is to blame for the decline in Christianity in America? :lamo Dude, OK, go watch some videos by DarkMatter2525, The atheist voice, or the Amazing Atheist. Try to refute their arguments. Go ahead, I'll be waiting. :) In fact, you should consider doing some debating in our Religion forum. See if your arguments will work there.
6. I know what Christlike attitude as because I can read a Bible. Christlike attitude is implied by verses such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, Matthew 6:9-13, and practically the entire Sermon on the Mount. I can tell you this much, Jesus spent a LOT more time reaching out to the poor and needy than he did hating on the ghey. (As a Christian, you do know this, right? ...right??)

(Character limit; continuing on the next post. Jeez, man, please shorten your posts!!)
 
The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.



No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.



To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.



Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.

That's interesting. So, for all your protestations you claim to have respect for Christianity, but not Judaism.



You'll find plenty of opposition to it - have you missed the debates over abstinence-based sex ed? The claims that single-parenthood is far from something to be celebrated, but something to be mourned? You'll find no celebration of the hookup culture in the Church.



Woefully missing, outside of some of the more conservative Protestant and Catholic Church. The Mainline denominations in this country failed dramatically to uphold this very clear teaching of Jesus, I agree.



Now that's an interesting claim. On what basis is it the rational thing to do?

(Continued.)

7. OOOOohhhhh, I used kerse werds! Oh noes!
8. "No one is trying to push a religion on you." You lie. Right-wing American Christians are constantly pushing their agenda onto society. Yet they cry "persecution" when called out on it or when they lose a battle or two. Heck, even a little bit of constructive criticism is enough for some of them to put their persecution complex on full display.
9. If God created people knowing that they would be gay, bi, or trans, yet forbade them from acting on their desires, then God either messed up or is a malicious god. Either way, such a god is not worthy of worship.
10. So if churches would just return to being more anti-LGBT, then they'd grow in numbers? :lamo Yeah I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that more and more Millennials are tired of this bull**** and are systematically disappearing from churches. Why get up on a Sunday morning just to go be judged when you can have a relaxing morning at the park, the coffee shop, or just lounging around on the sofa? What's that, that's sinful/immature/whatever? Really? Why does your god care? Why does he need to be worshipped? What does he get out of it that he wouldn't get otherwise? You should think these things through, will. Reality and religion are not always what we perceive them to be, especially when we are trapped inside a bubble of dogmatism.
11. Actually it's the other way around--I have far more respect for Judaism than for Christianity--but that's a discussion for another time. That being said, however, the Old Testament God is a far more malicious being than the New Testament God. Intolerance, cruelty, mass killings, misogyny, and all sorts of other delightful things are condoned in the Old Testament. At least Jesus didn't walk around and zap everyone he didn't like. (The book of Revelation is an entirely different story, however...)
12. Oh, man, if you don't think that there's not a hookup culture in a LOT of churches...yeah, you go right on thinking that. ;) And TBH, I think one of the very few things we can agree on here is that that kind of behavior really doesn't belong in a church.
13. Good, at least you're consistent. Thankfully America has embraced divorce as "the worst option except for all the others," and we're not going back any time soon. But the real reason that few if any churches preach about the "sin of divorce" is what it would do to their membership.
14. To do what, liberate myself from religion? There's no real way to answer that question unless you were to do it yourself. Ironically, people who are the most passionate about their faith tend to be the ones most likely to leave. I leave that as an exercise to you to figure out why.
 
Dude, could you at least *try* the outline format? Spamming quote tags like that makes your posts harder to digest as a whole.

Block quote and then respond? Nah, when I do that invariably someone complains "well how come you didn't address this small point right here..." etc. Far better to go bit by bit.

1. You start off immediately with the superiority complex. Well done. That was fast

Not really. :)

You are oblivious to it, but to those whom you target with it, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

No - you want your opponents to be mean so that you can pat yourself on the back about what a find upstanding person you are for standing up to those mean arrogant Christian bullies.

2. Religious thinkers = some of the most rational ones, eh? Can you please provide some examples of this?

Sure: Newton. Mendel. Locke. A whole string of Jesuits who make up a disproportionate percentage of history's greatest mathematicians and astronomers. Many of history's greatest minds have devoted their intellect to both the pursuit of God and the world He made. That's not to say that religious folks are inherently more logical than atheists - only that there are many of them who are among our most logical, and who have advanced humankind because of it.

3. There's so much wrong with this crap I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I'd like your personal definition of "postmodernism."

Post-Modernism (generality) is the belief system that really got it's kick after WWI, when an entire generation of intellectuals, raised on the certainties of the 19th Century, saw it vanish in the blood and mud of France. It became less of an elite-only movement later in the 20th Century, when Deconstruction (spend some time reading Derrida, it's interesting) and Relativism became a bit of an academic rage (Future historians, I think, are going to look back on the latter half of the 20th century as a very odd time in Human thought).

And your second sentence is EXACTLY the arrogance and dismissiveness I was talking about earlier. Protip: Learn to properly analyze your opponent so that you may have a chance to critique him. Or as Jesus said, get the plank out of your own eye so that you can see the specks in others'.

1. You are not, as near as I can tell, a "pro".
2. "If it feels good, do it" is indeed a juvenile and self-destructive philosophy. Adults make a plan, follow through, and have the ability to delay gratification. Children do what feels good in the moment, and suffer consequences later.
3. For having claimed that there was so much wrong that you didn't know where to start... you haven't shown any. You have asked me to define a term and then shifted to an ad hominem.


4. Christianity, as a percentage of world population growth, has stagnated. These are facts, will, cold, hard facts. Do you accept or deny these facts?

Sure - and continues to grow in raw numbers. Both growth in raw numbers and maintenance as a percentage of global populace being antithetical to "dying out". :shrug:

5. Wait, are you finally conceding that Christianity is on the decline in America?

:shrug: I've never argued otherwise. I pointed out that the claim that Christianity was dying out is false.

you think the public education system is to blame for the decline in Christianity in America?

To the extent that people are fooled by low-quality video's on youtube claiming that Jesus was Mithras or whatnot, sure.

Dude, OK, go watch some videos by DarkMatter2525, The atheist voice, or the Amazing Atheist. Try to refute their arguments. Go ahead, I'll be waiting

Now this is interesting. Should I go get for you some of the better apologists, have you look at their material, and then we can both come back and report?

In fact, you should consider doing some debating in our Religion forum. See if your arguments will work there.

I float in and out sometimes.

6. I know what Christlike attitude as because I can read a Bible. Christlike attitude is implied by verses such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, Matthew 6:9-13, and practically the entire Sermon on the Mount. I can tell you this much, Jesus spent a LOT more time reaching out to the poor and needy than he did hating on the ghey. (As a Christian, you do know this, right? ...right??)

Christ spent zero time hating homosexuals - and a ministry on earth trying to reach them (and everyone else) with salvation if only they will repent. However, the requirement to repent is also in a Christian attitude, and one that Christ evinced.
 
Certain states have already come out and said that they will not comply with, or will put up challenges to, the Supreme Court's ruling, so yes, it still is an issue even in this country. And it is most definitely an issue in many other countries.

As far as LGBT rights in general, there's still a REALLY long way to go.

If it is, it shouldn't be.
 
7. OOOOohhhhh, I used kerse werds! Oh noes!

:shrug: I've been screamed at by Marine Corps Drill Instructors for months and deployed to war in the infantry. If we want to holler puerile obscenities, I can hold my own. However, this response helps to draw out the point I was making - which was that if anyone in this debate is demonstrating a mocking, dismissive, abusive, and arrogant attitude, it is you.

8. "No one is trying to push a religion on you." You lie. Right-wing American Christians are constantly pushing their agenda onto society.

Which is not the same as trying to push a religion on anyone, any more than you being (for example) in favor of changing the definition of marriage to include same-sex couples means that you are forcing atheism on me.

Yet they cry "persecution" when called out on it or when they lose a battle or two.

:shrug: there is an anti-Christian bias on much of the Left.

9. If God created people knowing that they would be gay, bi, or trans, yet forbade them from acting on their desires, then God either messed up or is a malicious god.

Not really - all of us have temptations, and all of us should avoid indulging them. I, for example, spent a few years as a drunk (though not an alcoholic), and have the same class of temptation (wrongful lust) as any homosexual. I'm certainly not able to get up on a box and claim that I'm better than they.

Either way, such a god is not worthy of worship.

On the contrary - all of our sins are our own choosing. A God who accepts bitter pain on himself to save us from the consequences of our own decisions - to offer us a way out, is indeed a God worth all the worship we can offer.

10. So if churches would just return to being more anti-LGBT, then they'd grow in numbers?

A) you demonstrate an inability to distinguish between being "anti-LGBT" and "preaching a biblical message about sexuality". However, to the extent that churches perform the latter
B) yes, they perform significantly better than the churches who liberalize, although
C) this is mostly due to the liberalizing churches absolutely falling off cliffs in membership.

Yeah I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that more and more Millennials are tired of this bull**** and are systematically disappearing from churches. Why get up on a Sunday morning just to go be judged when you can have a relaxing morning at the park, the coffee shop, or just lounging around on the sofa?

This from the man who just finished ranting about how there was so much wrong with the notion that we have given up on sin and now pursue a "if it feels good, do it" philosophy that he can't even describe how wrong it is.

What's that, that's sinful/immature/whatever? Really? Why does your god care?

Because He loves us. You. Personally. He thinks it's worth degradation and pain just to reach out to you, to give you a chance.

Why does he need to be worshipped?

He doesn't. We need to worship Him.

What does he get out of it that he wouldn't get otherwise? You should think these things through, will.

:lol: because you are the first person to ask these questions in the history of ever.

Reality and religion are not always what we perceive them to be, especially when we are trapped inside a bubble of dogmatism.

Concur.
 
Phys251 said:
11. Actually it's the other way around--I have far more respect for Judaism than for Christianity--but that's a discussion for another time. That being said, however, the Old Testament God is a far more malicious being than the New Testament God. Intolerance, cruelty, mass killings, misogyny, and all sorts of other delightful things are condoned in the Old Testament. At least Jesus didn't walk around and zap everyone he didn't like. (The book of Revelation is an entirely different story, however...)

Well that's an interesting split. You have far more respect for a faith that you perceive as being far more intolerant, malicious, and bloodthirsty? Do you value those traits?

12. Oh, man, if you don't think that there's not a hookup culture in a LOT of churches...yeah, you go right on thinking that.

You get people in the church who abuse sexuality, sure. Christians are sinners who fall prey to temptation just like everyone else. The point, however, was as a matter of belief.

And TBH, I think one of the very few things we can agree on here is that that kind of behavior really doesn't belong in a church.

Well enough. Why - however - would you say that?

13. Good, at least you're consistent. Thankfully America has embraced divorce as "the worst option except for all the others," and we're not going back any time soon.

Oh yes. Because if there is anything that has been just awesome for America, it's the break up of the family. Children of single parents and children of divorce do awesome.

But the real reason that few if any churches preach about the "sin of divorce" is what it would do to their membership.

:shrug: well, again, the most conservative churches on this issue are the ones that are more broadly retaining or growing their membership.

14. To do what, liberate myself from religion? There's no real way to answer that question unless you were to do it yourself.

Interesting. So your answer is that you can't know until you've done it. Except that that is not a rational construct at all - it is an experiential one, perhaps, though it seems far more emotional. But shouldn't you be able to explain rational reasons why something is good and why you should act good that would be apparent and available to all, if your claims about the nature of morality and reason are correct?

Ironically, people who are the most passionate about their faith tend to be the ones most likely to leave.

That's interesting - that's not what I've seen at all. The vast majority of the folks who leave are the ones who were fringe / apathetic to begin with.
 
Hello Logicman! :2wave:

How does it feel to know that your beliefs are literally dying out? :)

You'll never see it.

I've also read the Book of Revelation and it's you guys who lose in the end.
 
You'll never see it.

I've also read the Book of Revelation and it's you guys who lose in the end.

I'm amazed how much you are into trying beat people up and damning them into hell. I really don't think your Jesus Christ was so into that.
 
People will still act like the sun is going to explode if gays can continue to marry.

As opposed to the people who thought the sun would explode if they weren't allowed to marry...
 
As opposed to the people who thought the sun would explode if they weren't allowed to marry...

Who ever said that? Oh wait maybe it was Xtians claiming if gays got married the world would end like Sodom and Gomorrah?
 
Who ever said that? Oh wait maybe it was Xtians claiming if gays got married the world would end like Sodom and Gomorrah?

Nobody that I know of, those were your words.
 
Nobody that I know of, those were your words.

Oh wait but you said this:

Quote Originally Posted by it's just me View Post
As opposed to the people who thought the sun would explode if they weren't allowed to marry...

And I probably could find some Logicman posts along the way that fit the bill.
 
Oh wait but you said this:



And I probably could find some Logicman posts along the way that fit the bill.

The point is, you tried to put words into people's mouths but the words came out of your mouth, not theirs.
 
What I find interesting, is that liberals want to be part of an institution that generally involves government interaction into ones personal life. I don't understand why anyone wants to get married, let alone, people who are gay. Marriage only invites more government interaction into your personal life.
 
You'll never see it.

I've also read the Book of Revelation and it's you guys who lose in the end.

Oh is that the one with monsters coming out of the ground? And seven-headed dragons? And more trippy ****?

Man, I tell ya...that John the Baptist must have been higher than a kite when he wrote that.
 
You'll never see it.

I've also read the Book of Revelation and it's you guys who lose in the end.

You have no idea who Jesus will judge unfit.
 
What I find interesting, is that liberals want to be part of an institution that generally involves government interaction into ones personal life. I don't understand why anyone wants to get married, let alone, people who are gay. Marriage only invites more government interaction into your personal life.

you wouldn't get it. We just want the *same rights*
 
Oh is that the one with monsters coming out of the ground? And seven-headed dragons? And more trippy ****?

Man, I tell ya...that John the Baptist must have been higher than a kite when he wrote that.

<facepalm>

The Apostle John wrote it, and not the Baptist. Which shows what you know about it.
 
I'm amazed how much you are into trying beat people up and damning them into hell. I really don't think your Jesus Christ was so into that.

Is there repentance and salvation in Christ in your futures?
 
You have no idea who Jesus will judge unfit.

Not precisely, but it's clear from his teachings that unless people repent of their sins (including fornication, adultery, gay sex sin), and receive him for salvation, they're screwed (Luke 13:3, John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12, Revelation 21:8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, etc.).

Don't leave earth without him.
 
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