View Poll Results: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

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  • Yes, the issue is settled

    33 51.56%
  • No, there's lots yet to discuss/debate

    27 42.19%
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    2 3.13%
  • What's SSM?

    2 3.13%
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Thread: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

  1. #171
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    It keeps things simpler to follow

    No you did not. You stated :


    In order to be literally dying out, his beliefs would have to be literally dying out.

    If you now wish to amend your statement and claim that you meant Joe-Biden-Literally, and that you only meant Here-in-the-US, then that's fine



    Not as much as you'd think. Those who don't believe simply feel more comfortable saying so.



    People who are wealthy and comfortable often tend to seek out self-pleasure as a purpose and think that they can seek wealth for security. In the West, we've also generally rejected the idea of Sin, for which both Christianity and Islam offer solutions. You can't gratefully receive forgiveness and salvation from your sins if you think you are already wonderful, and see no need to limit your self-focus.



    It's not a red herring. EITHER you were referring to "Christianity" when you said "his beliefs", OR you were referring to his position on homosexuality. Since you then responded by pointing out the relative growth of Islam, your statement becomes self-contradicting if the latter, which is what you suggested when you attempted to impute a conflation of "anti-LGBT" and "Christianity" on me.



    it is nothing close to hate speech, and only the simple and paranoid would find it such
    Here you go again with the attitude, will. In all the engagements I have had with you on DP, I have yet to recall a single instance when you did not quickly descend into an attitude of arrogance. You wanna preach to me about your superiority? Then start demonstrating it already through your actions. Why are you unable to have a rational, attitude-free discussion with me? Because you disagree with me? Because you see my views as a "threat" to you? How Christlike.

    1. Stop splitting hairs about my quote. Christianity is dying in the United States. Get over it already. The burden is on Christians to figure out why. But I am not holding out hope.
    2. Nope, the West is rejecting religion because they realize that reason trumps religion, not this whole "sin" construct that you are preaching. It's exposing itself as being antiquated. And the internet is helping that process along. In fact, dare I say that the internet is one of the single worst things that has ever happened to religion. You ever watched some of those videos about religion? There are reasons that religion is getting CRUSHED by those videos.
    3. More Christlike attitude. Seriously, man, I might take your comments more seriously if you would stop with the ATTITUDE. You wanna worship Jesus? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that. But the minute that you try to push your religion on us, in the form of laws and other policies, we will stand up to you. Fiercely. So keep on blathering about your Jesus. In the United States of America (since you apparently need this spelled out explicitly), your views are literally dying out.
    4. To **** on LGBTs and their perfectly normal and natural desires is hate speech, pure and simple. Protip: LGBT intolerance is a major problem with Millennials, and it is a significant reason why they are running from religion in droves. Unlike older generations, more and more of them are not gonna put up with that ****.

  2. #172
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Here you go again with the attitude, will. In all the engagements I have had with you on DP, I have yet to recall a single instance when you did not quickly descend into an attitude of arrogance. You wanna preach to me about your superiority? Then start demonstrating it already through your actions. Why are you unable to have a rational, attitude-free discussion with me? Because you disagree with me? Because you see my views as a "threat" to you? How Christlike.

    1. Stop splitting hairs about my quote. Christianity is dying in the United States. Get over it already. The burden is on Christians to figure out why. But I am not holding out hope.
    2. Nope, the West is rejecting religion because they realize that reason trumps religion, not this whole "sin" construct that you are preaching. It's exposing itself as being antiquated. And the internet is helping that process along. In fact, dare I say that the internet is one of the single worst things that has ever happened to religion. You ever watched some of those videos about religion? There are reasons that religion is getting CRUSHED by those videos.
    3. More Christlike attitude. Seriously, man, I might take your comments more seriously if you would stop with the ATTITUDE. You wanna worship Jesus? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that. But the minute that you try to push your religion on us, in the form of laws and other policies, we will stand up to you. Fiercely. So keep on blathering about your Jesus. In the United States of America (since you apparently need this spelled out explicitly), your views are literally dying out.
    4. To **** on LGBTs and their perfectly normal and natural desires is hate speech, pure and simple. Protip: LGBT intolerance is a major problem with Millennials, and it is a significant reason why they are running from religion in droves. Unlike older generations, more and more of them are not gonna put up with that ****.
    IMO, most precepts of Christianity dovetail nicely with the Constitution and civil rights. Hence, I have no problem with not creating any laws specifically based on a Christian belief. I see the hurdles still before us with some of the SSM/businesses citing religious objections but they too shall pass, just like segregation and Jim Crow in the South.

    I really consider most of what I've read of those objections so far to be BS anyway, because as I've written, who here has read of bakers and photographers or other businesses refusing service to adulterers or fornicators? It's a matter of their outrage, not their beliefs. And it's hypocritical.

    I would like to see numbers on the dying out of Christianity in the US tho....you may be right. Kind of a bummer tho but hey, I will always be able to practice what I believe under the Const. and I'd rather see quality rather than quantity in my religion.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #173
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Settled as in official law of the country? Yes.
    Settled as in people will still fight against it being the law of the country? No. People will still act like the sun is going to explode if gays can continue to marry.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

  4. #174
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    IMO, most precepts of Christianity dovetail nicely with the Constitution and civil rights. Hence, I have no problem with not creating any laws specifically based on a Christian belief. I see the hurdles still before us with some of the SSM/businesses citing religious objections but they too shall pass, just like segregation and Jim Crow in the South.

    I really consider most of what I've read of those objections so far to be BS anyway, because as I've written, who here has read of bakers and photographers or other businesses refusing service to adulterers or fornicators? It's a matter of their outrage, not their beliefs. And it's hypocritical.

    I would like to see numbers on the dying out of Christianity in the US tho....you may be right. Kind of a bummer tho but hey, I will always be able to practice what I believe under the Const. and I'd rather see quality rather than quantity in my religion.
    1. Which principles? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Blessed are the poor"? Or "put to death anyone who works on the Sabbath" and "a virgin woman who is raped must marry her rapist and never divorce her"? Two of these beliefs I have respect for. Two of them I do not. All four are found in the Bible.

    2. A point of clarification here--what objectors? But if I'm reading it right, yeah, where is the outrage against straight couples having sex outside of marriage? And what about divorce, which Jesus clearly condemned in every case except for cheating?

    3. My previous post contained a study that already answered your question. And you call it a "bummer"; I call it liberation. People are learning that they don't have to answer to an invisible figure just to behave as decent human beings. They can just choose to behave decently just because it is the rational thing to do.

  5. #175
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    IMO, most precepts of Christianity dovetail nicely with the Constitution and civil rights. Hence, I have no problem with not creating any laws specifically based on a Christian belief. I see the hurdles still before us with some of the SSM/businesses citing religious objections but they too shall pass, just like segregation and Jim Crow in the South.

    I really consider most of what I've read of those objections so far to be BS anyway, because as I've written, who here has read of bakers and photographers or other businesses refusing service to adulterers or fornicators? It's a matter of their outrage, not their beliefs. And it's hypocritical.

    I would like to see numbers on the dying out of Christianity in the US tho....you may be right. Kind of a bummer tho but hey, I will always be able to practice what I believe under the Const. and I'd rather see quality rather than quantity in my religion.
    I wish you could go back in time and tell that to all the Christians who believed the Bible supported the Divine Right of Kings.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings

    The Declaration of Independence reads differently when you realize how unChristian it was for its time.

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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    The kids were with their parents. Probably supposedly with the intent of seeing their parents 'doing the Lord's Work.'

    And yes, belief in Christ is beautiful, even for us less than perfect.
    Well. Everyone can't be Ron Burgandy.


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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Here you go again with the attitude, will. In all the engagements I have had with you on DP, I have yet to recall a single instance when you did not quickly descend into an attitude of arrogance. You wanna preach to me about your superiority?
    Ad Hominem? That was fast.

    But alright - where did I claim to be superior to you?

    Why are you unable to have a rational, attitude-free discussion with me?
    That is, in fact, precisely how I have been responding to you. Thus far the only one to get emotional is.... well, you.

    Because you disagree with me?
    Hard to debate with people who agree with you.

    Because you see my views as a "threat" to you?
    Not really.

    1. Stop splitting hairs about my quote
    you said what you said and what you said was incorrect. If you now wish to change what you said, well, as I've already pointed out to you, that's fine.

    Christianity is dying in the United States. Get over it already. The burden is on Christians to figure out why.
    Actually I have some fairly good ideas why, some of which I have already shared with you.

    2. Nope, the West is rejecting religion because they realize that reason trumps religion, not this whole "sin" construct that you are preaching.
    That is incorrect. Firstly, religious thinkers have been among our most rational thinkers. Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.

    It's exposing itself as being antiquated. And the internet is helping that process along.
    :raises eyebrow: The internet is a global phenomenon, and as has already been pointed out to you, Christianity is growing globally.

    In fact, dare I say that the internet is one of the single worst things that has ever happened to religion. You ever watched some of those videos about religion? There are reasons that religion is getting CRUSHED by those videos.
    I've watched lots of those video's about religion. If that is why people are walking away from faith, then it's not the video, it's the poor public education system.

    3. More Christlike attitude.
    How would you know?

    Seriously, man, I might take your comments more seriously if you would stop with the ATTITUDE.
    The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.

    You wanna worship Jesus? Fine, nobody is stopping you from doing that. But the minute that you try to push your religion on us, in the form of laws and other policies, we will stand up to you. Fiercely.
    No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.

    4. To **** on LGBTs and their perfectly normal and natural desires is hate speech, pure and simple
    To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.

    Protip: LGBT intolerance is a major problem with Millennials, and it is a significant reason why they are running from religion in droves.
    Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

    regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.

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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    1. Which principles? "Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Blessed are the poor"? Or "put to death anyone who works on the Sabbath" and "a virgin woman who is raped must marry her rapist and never divorce her"? Two of these beliefs I have respect for. Two of them I do not. All four are found in the Bible.
    That's interesting. So, for all your protestations you claim to have respect for Christianity, but not Judaism.

    2. A point of clarification here--what objectors? But if I'm reading it right, yeah, where is the outrage against straight couples having sex outside of marriage?
    You'll find plenty of opposition to it - have you missed the debates over abstinence-based sex ed? The claims that single-parenthood is far from something to be celebrated, but something to be mourned? You'll find no celebration of the hookup culture in the Church.

    And what about divorce, which Jesus clearly condemned in every case except for cheating?
    Woefully missing, outside of some of the more conservative Protestant and Catholic Church. The Mainline denominations in this country failed dramatically to uphold this very clear teaching of Jesus, I agree.

    3. My previous post contained a study that already answered your question. And you call it a "bummer"; I call it liberation. People are learning that they don't have to answer to an invisible figure just to behave as decent human beings. They can just choose to behave decently just because it is the rational thing to do.
    Now that's an interesting claim. On what basis is it the rational thing to do?

  9. #179
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Ad Hominem? That was fast.

    But alright - where did I claim to be superior to you?



    That is, in fact, precisely how I have been responding to you. Thus far the only one to get emotional is.... well, you.



    Hard to debate with people who agree with you.



    Not really.



    you said what you said and what you said was incorrect. If you now wish to change what you said, well, as I've already pointed out to you, that's fine.



    Actually I have some fairly good ideas why, some of which I have already shared with you.



    That is incorrect. Firstly, religious thinkers have been among our most rational thinkers. Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.



    :raises eyebrow: The internet is a global phenomenon, and as has already been pointed out to you, Christianity is growing globally.



    I've watched lots of those video's about religion. If that is why people are walking away from faith, then it's not the video, it's the poor public education system.



    How would you know?



    The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.



    No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.



    To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.



    Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

    regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.
    Dude, could you at least *try* the outline format? Spamming quote tags like that makes your posts harder to digest as a whole.

    1. You start off immediately with the superiority complex. Well done. That was fast. You are oblivious to it, but to those whom you target with it, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
    2. Religious thinkers = some of the most rational ones, eh? Can you please provide some examples of this?
    Now I am going to briefly break the outline, because this line deserves some special attention.

    Secondly, indeed much of post-modern culture was built on a rejection of sin in favor of relativism. "Like, who are you to judge, man?" type sophomoric responses and "If it feels good, do it" juvenile and self-destructive philosophies.
    3. There's so much wrong with this crap I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I'd like your personal definition of "postmodernism." And your second sentence is EXACTLY the arrogance and dismissiveness I was talking about earlier. Protip: Learn to properly analyze your opponent so that you may have a chance to critique him. Or as Jesus said, get the plank out of your own eye so that you can see the specks in others'.
    4. Christianity, as a percentage of world population growth, has stagnated. These are facts, will, cold, hard facts. Do you accept or deny these facts?
    5. Wait, are you finally conceding that Christianity is on the decline in America? Thank you! And LOL, you think the public education system is to blame for the decline in Christianity in America? Dude, OK, go watch some videos by DarkMatter2525, The atheist voice, or the Amazing Atheist. Try to refute their arguments. Go ahead, I'll be waiting. In fact, you should consider doing some debating in our Religion forum. See if your arguments will work there.
    6. I know what Christlike attitude as because I can read a Bible. Christlike attitude is implied by verses such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, Matthew 6:9-13, and practically the entire Sermon on the Mount. I can tell you this much, Jesus spent a LOT more time reaching out to the poor and needy than he did hating on the ghey. (As a Christian, you do know this, right? ...right??)

    (Character limit; continuing on the next post. Jeez, man, please shorten your posts!!)

  10. #180
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    Re: Is SSM a "dead" issue, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The "attitude" you claim to see is at best a figment of your imagination - something you are projecting. And honestly, I don't think you would. The person using curse words, all caps, hyperbolic questions, insults, and accusations here is you.



    No one is trying to push a religion on you. You are rebelling against a figment of imagination.



    To identify homosexual temptations as one of a vast multitude of ways in which we are broken and claim that the homosexual is a sinner just like everyone else on this planet including ourselves is not hate speech, nor is it ****ing on LGBT's. Quite the opposite.



    Actually the leading reason that causes churches to lose members faster than anything else is liberalizing on issues like homosexuality. Millennials leave church not least because it all too often offers them nothing different - simply a slower paced version of The World. Churches that stand apart from the World and refuse to conform to it remain active and vibrant.

    regardless, it's not as if we're going to change Scripture because one generation of Americans has been raised not to believe its precepts. Millennial Americans are nothing special.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That's interesting. So, for all your protestations you claim to have respect for Christianity, but not Judaism.



    You'll find plenty of opposition to it - have you missed the debates over abstinence-based sex ed? The claims that single-parenthood is far from something to be celebrated, but something to be mourned? You'll find no celebration of the hookup culture in the Church.



    Woefully missing, outside of some of the more conservative Protestant and Catholic Church. The Mainline denominations in this country failed dramatically to uphold this very clear teaching of Jesus, I agree.



    Now that's an interesting claim. On what basis is it the rational thing to do?
    (Continued.)

    7. OOOOohhhhh, I used kerse werds! Oh noes!
    8. "No one is trying to push a religion on you." You lie. Right-wing American Christians are constantly pushing their agenda onto society. Yet they cry "persecution" when called out on it or when they lose a battle or two. Heck, even a little bit of constructive criticism is enough for some of them to put their persecution complex on full display.
    9. If God created people knowing that they would be gay, bi, or trans, yet forbade them from acting on their desires, then God either messed up or is a malicious god. Either way, such a god is not worthy of worship.
    10. So if churches would just return to being more anti-LGBT, then they'd grow in numbers? Yeah I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that more and more Millennials are tired of this bull**** and are systematically disappearing from churches. Why get up on a Sunday morning just to go be judged when you can have a relaxing morning at the park, the coffee shop, or just lounging around on the sofa? What's that, that's sinful/immature/whatever? Really? Why does your god care? Why does he need to be worshipped? What does he get out of it that he wouldn't get otherwise? You should think these things through, will. Reality and religion are not always what we perceive them to be, especially when we are trapped inside a bubble of dogmatism.
    11. Actually it's the other way around--I have far more respect for Judaism than for Christianity--but that's a discussion for another time. That being said, however, the Old Testament God is a far more malicious being than the New Testament God. Intolerance, cruelty, mass killings, misogyny, and all sorts of other delightful things are condoned in the Old Testament. At least Jesus didn't walk around and zap everyone he didn't like. (The book of Revelation is an entirely different story, however...)
    12. Oh, man, if you don't think that there's not a hookup culture in a LOT of churches...yeah, you go right on thinking that. And TBH, I think one of the very few things we can agree on here is that that kind of behavior really doesn't belong in a church.
    13. Good, at least you're consistent. Thankfully America has embraced divorce as "the worst option except for all the others," and we're not going back any time soon. But the real reason that few if any churches preach about the "sin of divorce" is what it would do to their membership.
    14. To do what, liberate myself from religion? There's no real way to answer that question unless you were to do it yourself. Ironically, people who are the most passionate about their faith tend to be the ones most likely to leave. I leave that as an exercise to you to figure out why.

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