View Poll Results: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

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  • Yes

    11 15.07%
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Thread: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

  1. #281
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    It's not real logic, since you don't apply that same logic to God. You're just passing the buck, moving the goal posts, and throwing your hands in the air by attributing everything to God. Saying that 'God did it' is really saying, '**** if I know.'
    I am explaining to Cardinal what I believe. It is logical. If you think it is not, explain it.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    I've bolded the core of your argument.

    This is an argument from design, and is an outmoded approach because it worked better in a time when our understanding of the universe determined that if a thing exists, then it has a creator (see Clockmaker's Analogy). However, with the advent of our understanding of evolution we discovered that life could arise and evolve without the guidance of an overt God. Basic chemistry and biology explains it and predicts it. It's why modern medicine even works. That means that whereas before we had one possible choice for the creation of the universe (god), today we have two: god and, well, hell if I know. But basically if we know that life can be created and evolve without a Designer, and were in fact even wrong about this assumption in the first place, then we have to seriously entertain the possibility that the creation of the universe came about without a Designer as well.

    So it's not a guaranteed thing that if something exists then it must have been created. And it's absolutely not guaranteed that there is a "someone" in that creation. Occam's Razor, based on what we know today, would lead us to naturally conclude that some other avenue resulted in the creation of the universe.
    His argument wasn't "argument from design", it was argument from existence. Answer the questions: Can something come from nothing? If not, is existence eternal? If eternal (an attribute of God), ok. Can there be motion without force? If not, there is eternal force (an attribute of God) ok. Now all we have to determine is if this eternal force is personal or not, that is where faith comes in (on both sides of the question).

    BTW: I have read "A Universe From Nothing" they really don't make that point. They define nothing as an alternate universe with an imbalance of mater and antimatter allowing particles to pop into existence into our universe (if memory serves). That is definitely not "nothing"
    Last edited by johndylan1; 06-29-15 at 05:03 PM.
    "It is only when men contemplate the greatness of God that they can come to realize their own inadequacy." Jean Calvin

  3. #283
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    I am explaining to Cardinal what I believe. It is logical. If you think it is not, explain it.
    I did. You use logic, and then you stop using logic. If you follow your logic to its conclusion, you have to ask the same question about God's origins. Who created God? If God is immune to logic, then at least stop pretending that you're making a logical argument.

  4. #284
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    Evolution did happen, but everything evolved from something. It didn't just appear. And with evolution, if you accept the possibility of a God (and I do) then it is not a stretch to say that evolution happened by design, or at the very least designed with the possibility of evolution. And even if God created or put in to place the process to create life, and then evolution happened completely independent, that does not exclude the possibility of a God. It just means that life has taken off beyond control of a God. The existence of God as a creator does not even mean that God knows or cares about human choices, morality, or in this case evolution. God may not even still be alive. Our universe could be a toy created in some cosmic factory, bought for some kid who long ago discarded it for all I know. But I believe, and have never seen anything to dispute, that everything that exists was created.
    This is a variant of the God of the Gaps argument, where if you accept a natural explanation for one thing, then you push God further back to a place that has yet to provide a natural explanation. There's a really big elephant-in-the-room problem with the God of the Gaps argument, however: if you move God over to the place that we cannot explain, you're essentially ceding ground on the idea that God is omnipresent or omnipotent. If He is no longer required to explain one thing, why assume he is required to explain anything?

    I agree almost completely. But I wouldn't limit it to two. There are probably a countless number of explanations and possibilities that we have not yet evolved enough to yet understand.
    The two possibilities I entertained were a choice between the supernatural and the natural. Seeing as we understand basic biology in way that doesn't require the supernatural (and again, we can even predict it reliably), then the natural as an avenue for the creation of the universe is plausible. And based on what we have been able to understand to present, it seems even more likely.

    Wasn't guaranteeing anything. Just my logic behind why I believe it. I am very accepting of the possibility that I am wrong.
    Cool.
    I would argue that it would lead us to conclude that some other avenue could have resulted in the creation of the universe.
    Based on what we know now, the likelihood of that "could" is diminishing daily.

  5. #285
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I did. You use logic, and then you stop using logic. If you follow your logic to its conclusion, you have to ask the same question about God's origins. Who created God? If God is immune to logic, then at least stop pretending that you're making a logical argument.
    I dont pretend to know the answers to those questions. I am concluding that since our universe exists, it was created.
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  6. #286
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    I dont pretend to know the answers to those questions. I am concluding that since our universe exists, it was created.
    That's a start. I'm not hating on you because you believe in God, just pointing out that logic has little place in a theological argument. My view is that since reality and physics become less complex the further into subatomia you go, that the ultimate answer to creation is very simple, not infinitely complex.

  7. #287
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    This is a variant of the God of the Gaps argument, where if you accept a natural explanation for one thing, then you push God further back to a place that has yet to provide a natural explanation. There's a really big elephant-in-the-room problem with the God of the Gaps argument, however: if you move God over to the place that we cannot explain, you're essentially ceding ground on the idea that God is omnipresent or omnipotent. If He is no longer required to explain one thing, why assume he is required to explain anything?
    .
    Me not being able to explain everything doesn't mean someone/something doesn't exist. I am not using the gap argument, only that there are a few branches of argument there. I am not excluding any of them. In one, you have a God and from there either God did or did not have a hand in evolution. Or two, there is not God. Three combinations of possibility with that, all can be believed. Noone knows which is right.

    Seeing as we understand basic biology in way that doesn't require the supernatural (and again, we can even predict it reliably),
    But we don't. We understand biology from a certain starting point. We don't have a way to comprehend how to get to that point.

    then the natural as an avenue for the creation of the universe is plausible
    No matter how far you go back to the creation of the universe, it always comes back to supernatural. Different types of supernatural but neither seems natural to me. If there is a God and this God created our universe that is supernatural. If an entire universe created itself from absolutely nothing that is pretty supernatural as well.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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  8. #288
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    That's a start. I'm not hating on you because you believe in God, just pointing out that logic has little place in a theological argument. My view is that since reality and physics become less complex the further into subatomia you go, that the ultimate answer to creation is very simple, not infinitely complex.
    What is your belief as to the answer to creation?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreton View Post
    What is your belief as to the answer to creation?
    I don't know, but I doubt there's an intelligence behind it. And if there is, it would be such an astronomical intelligence that it couldn't possibly care about what we do.

  10. #290
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    Re: Do you feel Christians are Discriminated against in America?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I don't know, but I doubt there's an intelligence behind it. And if there is, it would be such an astronomical intelligence that it couldn't possibly care about what we do.
    I wouldn't try to argue that if a God exist that he/she/it would gave a damn about us. I stated that before. I am only expressing why I believe a God (again solely as a creator) exists.

    And based on your statement above it would sound like you agree at the very least that the possibility of God (solely as a creator) exists. Regardless of the how unlikely you believe it to be, you are kind of stating above the possibility is there.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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