View Poll Results: My marriage

Voters
49. You may not vote on this poll
  • changed

    3 6.12%
  • is exactly the same

    35 71.43%
  • is better thanks to SCOTUS ruling

    4 8.16%
  • is completely worthless thanks to SCOTUS ruling

    2 4.08%
  • has been ruined thanks to SCOTUS ruling

    2 4.08%
  • I'm divorcing because of SCOTUS ruling

    2 4.08%
  • what ruling? Who's SCOTUS?

    1 2.04%
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Thread: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

  1. #231
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I feel like she's dropped a pound in the last couple of days. So yes, it has changed in terms of total physical volume.
    Must have been a good deuce.

    I find I can drop about 3 pounds with a good bowel movement.

  2. #232
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by vesper View Post
    Morning Captain.
    You keep mentioning ALL this research to support gays raising children but there is also ALL this research out there that says differently. Organizations like the APA and the AMA can be just as political as those in robes on the Supreme Court. I believe it was in the year 1974 maybe 73 the APA was under pressure to remove homosexuality from their list of disorders. So by a vote of 13 trustees, overnight they cured with a vote what they classified as a disorder for over a century and removed it from the list. Did those 13 trustees represent the opinions of every member of the APA? Absolutely not. Did those 5 justices who were politically appointed that took it upon themselves to redefine marriage for this country represent a large portion of citizens in this country? No they did not. It always seems to boil down to a small group of elitists calling the shots for everyone. Take global warming. You have an elite group of scientists telling us the sky is falling. If a scientist dissents they are mocked in hopes of others will not take them seriously. It is as if all things start and end in politics.
    Incorrect. You don't seem to know what really happened in 1973. Here, I will post what happened... I have reposted this several times over the years:

    Dispelling the myth of Pro-Gay Politicizing of the APA
    Reproduced, with permission from CaptainCourtesy

    Part I

    Homosexuality has been seen in a negative light for centuries. Early on, it was completely due to the interpretation of Bible passages and because of religious and moral beliefs. Genesis's description of "Sodom" coined the word "sodomy" which by the 18th century, came to describe an act that the Church saw as "unnatural' or "crimes against nature". Homosexuality, bestiality, masturbation, oral and anal sex were all included in this definition. There was zero research or evidence that any homosexual was disordered in any way. This was a moral stance, completely baseless in empirical evidence. No substance, just value judgements.

    Karl Westphal, a German physician, was one of the first medical professionals to examine homosexuals, observationally. He concluded from these observations that homosexuality was a "condition "contrary sexual sensation" and claimed it was congenital. As such, he argued, it should come under psychiatric care rather then legal prosecution." He was the first, I believe, to argue that gays should be looked at as having a disorder. Note, this was based, purely on observation and his own theory and beliefs, probably based on the attitudes of the time (19th Century). No research was done. Jean-Martin Charcot, a teacher of Freud's and considered the founder of modern neurology, considered homosexuality to be a hysteric disorder, which, translated to 21st century vernacular, would be a psychiatric ailment. Charcot based this belief on the, at the time, widely accepted theory of "hereditary degeneration". This was a theory, expoused by Benedict Augustin Morel in the 19th Century. It is somewhat technical, but the essence of the theory is that any issue or disease that was deemed incurable, would be degenerative through heredity and damage future generations. Tuberculosis, hysteria, homosexuality, alcoholism, and cretinism were all issues that Morel determined were heredity based, untreatable, and those who had these issues should be placed in assylums and prevented from reproducing. Again, there was no research or evidence into any of these claims. Looking at the list of issue, we know now that this theory is ridiculous, but based on Morel's morals and the lack of knowledge about medicine and heredity at the time. Interestingly enough, the Nazi's used some of Morel's theories to justify placing Jews in concentration camps.

    In the 20th Century,Richard von Krafft-Ebing and Havelock Ellis' theories of sexual inversion, the belief that "homosexuality was an inborn reversal of gender traits. Interestingly enough, early on, Krafft-Ebing saw homosexuality as a severe hereditary degeneration (see above), but as he met more homosexuals, he saw it as a normal sexual varient, and not a disorder. Ellis also felt this way.

    No discussion of psychology can be conducted without discussing Sigmund Freud. Freud did not view homosexuality as an illness, but rather as the unconflicted expression of an innate instinct based on trauma. He believed that all of us had both hetero- and homosexual traits, but under normal and non-traumatic circumstances, one would act like one's anatomical sex. He also saw homosexuality as an immature, but not pathological expression of sexuality. As with all of Freud's theories, there was not empirical research done; his belief was based on theory and observation, and the tenor of the times.

    Continued in Part II...
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #233
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Part II

    Late in life, Freud wrote this to a mother, asking him to "cure" her son's homosexuality: "Homosexuality is assuredly no advantage, but it is nothing to be ashamed of, no vice, no degradation; it cannot be classified as an illness".

    In the mid-20th Century. two theorists/researchers theories propelled homosexuality far further into the realm of pathology. And both were based on flawed beliefs/research.

    Sandor Rado argued that Freud's theory of homosexuality was based on a flawed 19th Century theory: embryonic hermaphroditism (the belief that all embryos had the potential to be either male or female). He was correct about this. His error in logic was to then assume that heteosexuality was the only non-pathological alternative. He did no reasearch or provided evidence of his theory.

    The Bieber study is often used to prove the pathology of homosexuals, by showing that they could be "cured". The two major outcomes of his study was to show that 27% of homosexuals, treated, were "cured" and in identifying the familial traits of the families of homosexuals. Biber's study had major methodological flaws, and has been widely criticized and debunked. Firstly, he only used subjects that were already under psychiatric care. Secondly, no long term follow-up was done to determine if the result remained. Thirdly, Bieber was unable to produce even one of his subjects he claimed to have cured. Lastly, Biebers conclusions about the familial structure of a homosexual's family have been debunked by the 1981 study of a much larger, nonpatient gay population, a study that is methodologically sound. In essence, the Bieber study, often the cornerstone of the anti-gay agenda, has been shown to be completely flawed and invalid when studying this issue.

    The Bieber study was a response to the Kinsey study. Alfred Kinsey, the well-known sex researcher, created the Kinsey scale, through extensive research. Kinsey was one of the first to do evidence based research on a nonpatient population. What he found was that people varied on a scale from "exclusive heterosexual" to "exclusive homosexual" and variations in between. His research showed that at any given time throughout history, 3%-7% of the population was gay. His theories showed that homosexuality was both natural and widespread. Though this had an impact on non-pathologizing homosexuality, as Kinsey's reasearch did not, specifically address this issue, it did not confirm it. The Hooker study, however, did.

    Evelyn Hooker's study was published in 1956, and throughout the '60s gained more and more recognition, as more and more studies reproduced here findings, accurately. Here is a great brief description of Hooker's studyu and findings:

    Psychologist Evelyn Hooker's groundbreaking study compared the projective test results from 30 nonpatient homosexual men with those of 30 nonpatient heterosexual men. The study found that experienced psychologists, unaware of whose test results they were interpreting, could not distinguish between the two groups. This study was a serious challenge to the view that homosexuality was always associated with psychopathology.
    This was the first study that examined, psychologically, nonpatients; the opposite was a serious methological flaw in past studies. Experienced psychologists saw NO difference.

    When the first DSM came out in 1952, homosexuality was classified as a mental illness, not only matching with the societal attitudes of the time, and throughout the ages, but matching with the volume of research, all of which, as can be seen, above, was based on poor methodology, research based on observation only, morals, or opinions.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #234
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    By 1973, the Hooker study, replicated studies showing the same results, and many other studies showing the non-pathology of homosexuality had been published. Yet, in spite of this evidence, the APA held onto it's position that homosexuality would remain a disorder, and many on committees had never seen much of the research proving this inaccurate. It was only when the gay activists, including gay psychiatrists/psychologists pressed the APA to review and examine the research, that they did. When the APA saw the volume of research that showed that homosexuality was not an illness, and examined the methological issues with the research that showed that it was, further discussions were had in order to determine whether homosexuality would be declassified or not.

    When the APA voted, 58% voted to declassify homosexuality, which it was. Why only 58% if the research was so conclusive? For the same reason that we see here, at DP, that no matter how much conclusive research is presented that shows that homosexuality is not a disorder, some still hold onto that fallacious belief: bigotry, prejudice, inflexible thinking, morals over logic, and probably some other illogical reasons. Even Bieber, when presented with the evidence, and seeing his own study debunked because of methological reasons, refused to alter his belief. Why? Well, he was described as someone who would not admit he was wrong, even when proven so. Sounds like some folks around here. On this thread, even.

    So, was the APA decision to declassify homosexuality as a disorder politically motivated? The politics involved was to force the APA to look at and examine, objectively, research showing that homosexuality was not a disorder, and that the research that showed it was, was flawed. As I said earlier, the concept of politicizing this issue has been misrepresented by the anti-gay side of this issue to appear as if it were something it was not. One can compare this, to some extent, to the black civil rights movement. Was that political? Yes, but not in the way a bigot would make it.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #235
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Part III

    In 1981, Ronald Bayer wrote a book claiming that the reason that the APA declassified homosexuality was solely because of gay activists. Bayer, not a Psychologist, but a Professor of Political Science, reported on this, but was not an active participant. As a direct refutation on Bayer's work, the book, "American Psychiatry and Homosexuality: An Oral History" was published 2007. In it 17 APA members who participated in the 1973 APA meeting, are interviewed and discuss what really happened and what the attitudes towards homosexuality was like, at the time. These are people who were actually there, not someone like Bayer, who just reported on this. Here is a description:

    Product Description
    Interviews and first-hand accounts of an historic decision that affected the mental health profession—and American society and culture Through the personal accounts of those who were there, American Psychiatry and Homosexuality: An Oral History examines the 1973 decision by the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to remove homosexuality from its diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (DSM). This unique book includes candid, one-on-one interviews with key mental health professionals who played a role in the APA’s decision, those who helped organize gay, lesbian, and bisexual psychiatrists after the decision, and others who have made significant contributions in this area within the mental health field.
    American Psychiatry and Homosexuality presents an insider’s view of how homosexuality was removed from the DSM, the gradual organization of gay and lesbian psychiatrists within the APA, and the eventual formation of the APA-allied Association of Gay & Lesbian Psychiatrists (AGLP). The book profiles 17 individuals, both straight and gay, who made important contributions to organized psychiatry and the mental health needs of lesbian and gay patients, and illustrates the role that gay and lesbian psychiatrists would later play in the mental health field when they no longer had to hide their identities.
    Individuals profiled in American Psychiatry and Homosexuality include:

    Dr. John Fryer, who disguised his identity to speak before the APA’s annual meeting in 1972 on the discrimination gay psychiatrists faced in their own profession
    Dr. Charles Silverstein, who saw the diagnosis of homosexuality as a means of social control
    Dr. Lawrence Hartmann, who helped reform the APA and later served as its President in 1991-92
    Dr. Robert J. Campbell, who helped persuade the APA’s Nomenclature Committee to hear scientific data presented by gay activists
    Dr. Judd Marmor, an early psychoanalytic critic of theories that pathologized homosexuality
    Dr. Robert Spitzer, who chaired the APA’s Nomenclature Committee
    Dr. Frank Rundle, who helped organize the first meeting of what would become the APA Caucus of Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Psychiatrists
    Dr. David Kessler, AGLP President from 1980-82
    Dr. Nanette Gartrell, a pioneer of feminist issues within the APA
    Dr. Stuart Nichols, President of the AGLP in 1983-84 and a founding member of the Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists of New York (GLPNY)
    Dr. Emery Hetrick, a founding member of both AGLP and GLPNY
    Dr. Bertram Schaffner, who was instrumental in providing group psychotherapy for physicians with AIDS
    Dr. Martha Kirkpatrick, a long-time leader in psychiatry and psychoanalysis, both as a woman and an “out” lesbian
    Dr. Richard Isay, the first openly gay psychoanalyst in the American Psychoanalytic Association
    Dr. Richard Pillard, best known for studying the incidence of homosexuality in families of twins
    Dr. Edward Hanin, former Speaker of the APA Assembly
    Dr. Ralph Roughton, the first openly gay Training and Supervising Psychoanalyst to be recognized within the American and International Psychoanalytic Associations
    American Psychiatry and Homosexuality presents the personal, behind-the-scenes accounts of a major historical event in psychiatry and medicine and of a decision that has affected society and culture ever since. This is an essential resource for mental health educators, supervisors, and professionals; historians; and LGBT readers in general.
    Amazon.com: American Psychiatry and Homosexuality: An Oral History: Jack Drescher, Joseph P. Merlino: Books
    Some quotes and anectodes from the book:
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #236
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    By contrast, these first-person accounts provide corrective insider views of the process. Several speak of the depressing psychiatric attitudes prior to 1973. Lawrence Hartmann recalls, "The few analysts who wrote about gay people tended to describe them as nasty psychopaths, close to psychosis. I am not making this up!"
    Judd Marmor recalls the view that "homosexuals were inherently seriously mentally disturbed, irresponsible, and completely driven by needs over which they had no control." They were supposedly "emotionally immature, deceptive, impulsive, unreliable, and incapable of truly loving."
    ...gay activist Ron Gold arranged for gays to meet with the APA's Committee on Nomenclature where they laid out evidence from studies supporting gay mental health. Robert Jean Campbell recalls, "They had a lot of data that I had never seen. I don't know where they got it, but I was really overwhelmed by the data."
    Campbell argued that the committee should take its own look at the scientific evidence about homosexuality.
    Spitzer recalls thinking, "Is there something that they (other mental disorders) all share that I can argue does not apply to homosexuality?" His conclusion was that people with other conditions "were usually not very happy about it. They had distress or...in some way the condition interfered with their overall functioning."
    Spitzer continues, "If you accepted what the activists said, clearly here were homosexuals who were not distressed by being homosexual. Instead, they might be distressed by how people reacted to their being gay."
    Cure-therapists, mostly psychoanalysts such as Irving Bieber and the zealously homophobic Charles Socarides (whose son is openly gay), were furious and began gathering signatures demanding a referendum to overturn the board's decision. Edward Hanin recalls, "The controversy was led by people who essentially said this was politics intruding into science. It wasn't. The APA Board of Trustees had reviewed very carefully the evidence related to homosexuality."
    Judd Marmor agrees: "The fact is that the decision to remove homosexuality...was not based on gay political pressure but on scientific correctness and only after a full year of exploratory hearings and study of the issue. The so-called 'politics' surrounding the decision was subsequently instilled into the process by opponents."
    Robert Jean Campbell comments, "I thought the only reason they were worried was that they wouldn't have any patients if this went through. People would no longer go to them for something that was no longer a disease."
    Dr. John Fryer, M.D., a psychiatrist who in 1972 spoke at a psychiatry panel on homosexuality, appearing as “Dr. H. Anonymous,” disguising his true physical identity—and even his voice. In those days, to come out as a gay psychiatrist meant a ruined career.
    I would take the word of those who were there, rather than that of a reseracher-reporter, any day.

    I hope this has been helpful and cleared up a lot of misconceptions. I do not believe that those on the opposite side of this issue will change their mind because of this information. Prejudice and bigotry can rarely altered, even in the light of irrefutable evidence. Thing is, regardless of whether they believe it or not, they are wrong. And that is factual.

    Now, since this was originally posted by me 2 and a half years ago, may of the links that I originally used are no longer working. However, I will provide links upon request.

    So, in conclusion, the activism to declassify homosexuality as a disorder was to get research examined.

    So, vesper, you are wrong. The APA's decision had nothing to do with a few elitists making a decision. It was about countering a few elitists from keeping an erroneous decision.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #237
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    …And meanwhile, nearly everyone fawns over the spectacular new clothes that the Emperor is wearing, not daring to speak the plain and obvious truth that His Majesty is parading around in public stark naked. It's what happens when groupthink and peer pressure masquerade as science.
    Unfortunately, Bob, your post reflects your position on this matter. You always chose to ignore science and research, and instead stay stuck to your completely subjective morality and belief system. You'd prefer to remain in denial about this issue than to dare challenge these beliefs of yours. It's what happens when one prefers to remain blind to an issue because their beliefs dictate that.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    Mace Windu: Then our worst fears have been realized. We must move quickly if the Jedi Order is to survive.

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #238
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    TLDR.....

    Just saying...

  9. #239
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    TLDR.....

    Just saying...
    An impressive demonstration of his talent for using ridiculously large numbers of words to say nothing of any substance.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

  10. #240
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    Re: Has your marriage changed since SCOTUS ruling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Being a good and effective parent has absolutely nothing to do with the specific genitalia one has between their legs.

    Therefore, it makes perfect sense that having the same genitalia or "opposing" genitalia would have no effect either.

    Having a good "set" of parents is highly beneficial for any child.
    Simply having one parent with a penis and one with a vagina in no way, shape, or form is a guarantee they'll be good parents or bad parents.

    If both have a penis, or both have a vagina there's still no guarantee they'll be good or bad parents either.

    Parenting is not defined by the junk you got between your legs.

    Everyone knows the world is chock-full of people who are not fit to be parents.

    Obsessing over what gender each parent is attracted sexually to just doesn't make sense.

    What's best for a child depends on a billion other more important things than a penis or a vagina.
    if we're going to micromanage lives in such a discriminatory manner, single parents on food stamps should have their kids taken first, but even they had more rights than the wealthy gay couple from michigan

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