View Poll Results: Is Political Correctness Real

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    83 83.00%
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    8 8.00%
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Thread: Political Correctness

  1. #271
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    If speech is as useless or even counter-productive as you say, why should we care what happens to it?
    Because it is a Right. It's part of your self-ownership. That's the ideological reason.

    The Utilitarian reason is because we have discovered that the only thing more likely to make stupid, irrational decisions than an individual is a group of individuals when that group of individuals is demonstrating groupthink (which is an important part of the PC culture, but can be found in any grouping of humans of sufficient ideological closeness). Close-mindedness can take even a powerful nation and lead it to intellectual repression, stultification, loss of innovation, and, ultimately, societal defeat (see: Ottoman Empire) because self-appointed mindguards are never quite so capable as they think themselves to be. Quite the opposite.

    While the ideological argument (from an American / Lockean perspective) is that Free Speech is desirable because no man has the right to limit anothers' speech or thought absent harm to another (quality of thought is irrelevant), the utilitarian perspective is that we allow free speech not because man is so good at figuring out what is good to believe and say, but rather because he is so very bad at it.

    It isn't "ever-more-byzantine." It's really simple. Just don't attack a demographic group. Period. That's it. Just that one rule. Attack ideas all you want, attack political groups, etc., but don't attack a demographic group. If you can refrain from doing that one thing, you will never be on the wrong side of PC.
    ....have you been in a time capsule for the past decade or so?

    How about "politely decline to participate in someone's wedding with your goods or services"? That's not an attack. How about "believe that marriage is between a man and a woman"? that's not an attack. How about "Thinking that when you put someone on trial for rape, the evidence should be controlling rather than the accusers' desire to be publicly vindicated"? That's not an attack. How about stating that "America is the land of opportunity" or "all lives matter"? Those aren't attacks But all these things are Not PC, and those who have dared to do or say them have and will be appropriately punished. Statistically true information about immigration and rape culture is attacked for not being PC. That's an indication that we are not using the power of the electronic mob to improve debate by getting rid of bad ideas, but rather to shut up heretics who question the Received Wisdom, regardless of their ability to foment arguments.

    And, no, I don't think that is at all true that 50% of the population gets attacked by PC.
    Of course not. Most folks don't end up a target and most folks learn to keep their heads down. But if you are Ms America, well, you must be politicized and attacked.... for holding a belief that half the country holds.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

  2. #272
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey
    Most Republicans never get called racist or anything like that. It is a certain segment of the GOP that draws all the criticism.
    Yeah. The part that is publicly active. Speak up, as a Conservative, and you will be called a racist by Democrats and their supporters, regardless of the truth of the charge. Unless you are black, in which case you will be called an Uncle Tom for daring to wander off the intellectual plantation. FFS, remember when Chris Matthews declared that Scott Brown talking about driving his truck around the state of Massachusetts was a "racist dog whistle"?

    Generally, they're white supremacists or anti-gay hatemongers or and-Muslim nuts or whatever.
    I would like to see your evidence that Scott Brown, Paul Ryan, the entire GOP, Anti-Obamacare Protesters, People who think that you ought to show an ID to vote, People who don't like President Obama, Joe Wilson, etc., so on, and so forth, ad nauseum. Did you know that the GOP wants to literally take us back to Jim Crow?

    Democrats accuse Republicans of racism, or sexism, or some other form of bogeymanism whenever they lack good arguments. It's how they make up for the fact that many of their ideas haven't changed much since the 60s - you turn the opponent into an evil monster, and then make low-information voters afraid of him. Mean Old Republicans Are Gonna Put Ya'll Back In Chains... unless you just keep voting Democrat, now, Y'Hear?

    But then, when they're attacked, they try to hide behind the GOP and the GOP gives them cover, so then other Republicans perceive it as if they have been attacked or accused or something.
    What? The GOP is by far the quicker of the two parties to expel and pull away from someone who actually does something stupid or wrong. I dare you to find any example of GOP behavior when ti comes to protecting it's membership compared to (for example) Democrats covering for massive tax fraud by Charlie Rangel. When a Senate Majority Leader complimented an old man on his birthday he was g-o-n-e. When Harry Reid said that Obama was pretty clean for a black guy, and that wasn't it neat that he didn't speak like the other negroes, Obama went on TV and said "he knew Harry's heart" and all was fine. Obama can talk about "typical white people" all he likes, but let a Republican talk about "typical black people" and he's out. Instantly.

    I'm not really sure what your position is. Are you arguing that instead of free speech we should have some kind of rule where only speech you consider polite or non-accusatory or something is permitted? That would be a radically different right than we have now.
    ...so, maybe this is just a conservative, small-government, "thing", but most folks here on the right thing that it is possible for someone to abuse their freedoms by acting wrongly without creating a requirement for government to stop them from doing so. The PC culture is wrong. That doesn't mean that we should have some kind of state restrictions on them, simply that we should recognize that the mob is an unreasonable and abusive animal, not a picture of beautiful representative government, and that the PC mob is no better now than it was when it killed Socrates. The only restriction I'd make via the state is that I would strip the PC crowd's ability to bring the State coercive power to bear on the exercise of our first amendment freedoms that do not infringe on the rights of others.
    Worth noting, Democrats: President Trump will have a Pen and a Phone. #Precedent.

  3. #273
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Because it is a Right. It's part of your self-ownership. That's the ideological reason.
    "Because I said so" isn't a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    The Utilitarian reason is because we have discovered that the only thing more likely to make stupid, irrational decisions than an individual is a group of individuals when that group of individuals is demonstrating groupthink (which is an important part of the PC culture, but can be found in any grouping of humans of sufficient ideological closeness). Close-mindedness can take even a powerful nation and lead it to intellectual repression, stultification, loss of innovation, and, ultimately, societal defeat (see: Ottoman Empire) because self-appointed mindguards are never quite so capable as they think themselves to be. Quite the opposite.
    Not sure I'm following. You seem to be arguing that free speech is bad because it leads to groupthink and close-mindedness and mindguarding. That's clearly an argument against free speech. You are arguing that we should silence the close-minded mindguards, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ....have you been in a time capsule for the past decade or so?

    How about "politely decline to participate in someone's wedding with your goods or services"? That's not an attack.
    See, that sounds like you've been in a time capsule since the 1950s... As a society, we decided, overwhelmingly, in the 1960s, that denying people access to goods and services because of the demographic group they are in is flat out monstrous. Yes, it is an attack of gay people.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    How about "believe that marriage is between a man and a woman"? that's not an attack.
    Do you mean just quietly thinking that to yourself? Or do you mean going out into the world and voting to deny gay people equal rights? The former is not an attack. The latter obviously is an attack on gay people.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    How about "Thinking that when you put someone on trial for rape, the evidence should be controlling rather than the accusers' desire to be publicly vindicated"? That's not an attack.
    Obviously the evidence should and does control in a trial. That would not be an attack. That said, if what you're really advocating for is turning rape trials into an inquisition into the victim, then obviously that would be an attack on women.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    How about stating that "America is the land of opportunity"
    That isn't an attack so much as just ignorant. The US used to be the land of opportunity back in the 60s and 70s. We had the highest intergenerational income mobility in the first world. But that hasn't been the case for decades now. Today, we have the lowest intergenerational income mobility in the first world.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    or "all lives matter"? Those aren't attacks
    Yes, obviously that is an attack. It is a dig at the "black lives matter" campaign that is designed to raise awareness of police violence. Why would you be trying to take a dig at that?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Statistically true information about immigration and rape culture is attacked for not being PC.
    Well, you'd have to give an example before I could say whether it is true, but of course true information can also be an attack. Just think about it. Say, for example, that there is a kid in jr. high whose mom is poor and the other kids sit around all day taunting him about his mom being poor. Would you understand that that could be an attack?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Of course not. Most folks don't end up a target and most folks learn to keep their heads down.
    No, I don't think so. It mostly just seems to happen to the variety of right wingers that seem to get some kind of thrill out of going around insulting demographic groups.

  4. #274
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yeah. The part that is publicly active. Speak up, as a Conservative, and you will be called a racist by Democrats and their supporters, regardless of the truth of the charge.
    No, there are many politically active conservatives who don't say any racist stuff at all and hence never get called racists.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I would like to see your evidence that Scott Brown, Paul Ryan, the entire GOP, Anti-Obamacare Protesters, People who think that you ought to show an ID to vote, People who don't like President Obama, Joe Wilson, etc., so on, and so forth, ad nauseum. Did you know that the GOP wants to literally take us back to Jim Crow?

    Democrats accuse Republicans of racism, or sexism, or some other form of bogeymanism whenever they lack good arguments. It's how they make up for the fact that many of their ideas haven't changed much since the 60s - you turn the opponent into an evil monster, and then make low-information voters afraid of him. Mean Old Republicans Are Gonna Put Ya'll Back In Chains... unless you just keep voting Democrat, now, Y'Hear?
    Most those appear to be situations where a liberal says "some of X is motivated by racism", no? Well that's true of course, isn't it?

    I can't believe you brought up the Biden one though lol. You know that was just a hoax, right? Romney said that Obama was trying to "put Wall Street in chains" and Biden quipped back that Romney was trying to put the people in chains. You really still didn't know that after all these years?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    What? The GOP is by far the quicker of the two parties to expel and pull away from someone who actually does something stupid or wrong. I dare you to find any example of GOP behavior when ti comes to protecting it's membership compared to (for example) Democrats covering for massive tax fraud by Charlie Rangel. When a Senate Majority Leader complimented an old man on his birthday he was g-o-n-e. When Harry Reid said that Obama was pretty clean for a black guy, and that wasn't it neat that he didn't speak like the other negroes, Obama went on TV and said "he knew Harry's heart" and all was fine. Obama can talk about "typical white people" all he likes, but let a Republican talk about "typical black people" and he's out. Instantly.
    You think the GOP is quicker to kick out racists lol? Do you not follow the news at all lol? Like 1/2 of your presidential candidates both this time and in 2012 have said overtly white supremacist things... Donald Trump is currently #2! He wasn't kicked out for his white supremacist rant, that is why he's #2- because white supremacist ranting boosts your ranking in the GOP. Republican politicians are constantly being caught in racist rants and the best example you can come up with of the GOP kicking somebody out for that was over 20 years ago?

    Obviously you're smart enough to know that those Democratic lines you're quoting are not actually racist. Don't play dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ...so, maybe this is just a conservative, small-government, "thing", but most folks here on the right thing that it is possible for someone to abuse their freedoms by acting wrongly without creating a requirement for government to stop them from doing so. The PC culture is wrong. That doesn't mean that we should have some kind of state restrictions on them, simply that we should recognize that the mob is an unreasonable and abusive animal, not a picture of beautiful representative government, and that the PC mob is no better now than it was when it killed Socrates. The only restriction I'd make via the state is that I would strip the PC crowd's ability to bring the State coercive power to bear on the exercise of our first amendment freedoms that do not infringe on the rights of others.
    "PC culture" is free speech. That's what free speech is- the right to denounce things you think need to be denounced. You can't be anti-PC and pro-free speech, that doesn't make any sense.

  5. #275
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    Re: Political Correctness

    I checked "other". The whole notion of PC is certainly real; but it has become some sort of plague. The truth might hurt, but it's still the truth. To solve a problem, you need real hard facts; that way you'll get a result that has a chance of working.

  6. #276
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    You've kind of got the agency backwards. It isn't about somebody telling society what is correct, free speech is society deciding what is correct.
    Wrong. You already stated it, the whole point of it... to "crush" what the "politically correct" tell society what is correct and what is undesirable. The politically correct are a portion of society that think they are cleverly "representing society" but as you can clearly see many do not agree. Those that do not agree are also a portion of society... but you dismiss them, and me, since them, and me, do not represent what is "correct" in your opinion... That is illogical garbage. It is also fallacious. Appeal to Majority.

    Uh, no lol. Don't be ridiculous.
    'Whites suffer more racism than blacks': Study shows white people believe they are more discriminated against | Daily Mail Online

    On Racism and White Privilege | Teaching Tolerance

    10 ways white people are more racist than they realize - Salon.com

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiten...hite_privilege

    JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

    Are whites racially oppressed? - CNN.com

    It is in these sources but hell, I took a Whiteness Studies course at University and was told by the professor and two black students that I was racist because I was white.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

  7. #277
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Wrong. You already stated it, the whole point of it... to "crush" what the "politically correct" tell society what is correct and what is undesirable. The politically correct are a portion of society that think they are cleverly "representing society" but as you can clearly see many do not agree. Those that do not agree are also a portion of society... but you dismiss them, and me, since them, and me, do not represent what is "correct" in your opinion... That is illogical garbage. It is also fallacious. Appeal to Majority.
    No, you've still got the agency mixed up. Free speech is about letting everybody- society as a whole- say what it thinks. If enough people think something is despicable, and they say so, then the people who want to say that thing get drowned out and demeaned for saying it. That's what political correctness is- society firmly rejecting an idea. It isn't some special cadre of people that get to decide, it is society as a whole.

    I don't think that the majority is always right. There certainly have been cases where the majority has shouted down what latter turned out to be the right answer. For example, religious majorities have often shouted down science for years before the science won out. But, the theory of free speech is that in the long run, letting society freely express whatever views it wants tends to get you to a better answer than trying to control the conversation

    Do you not understand what "white privilege" is? You thought that meant "white people are racist?" Seriously, in 2015, that's where your level of understanding this stuff is at? WTF dude.

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    Re: Political Correctness

    Lol @ "Crush".

    Such evil villain talk.

    good catch Bodhisattva

  9. #279
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by gone fishin' View Post
    I checked "other". The whole notion of PC is certainly real; but it has become some sort of plague. The truth might hurt, but it's still the truth. To solve a problem, you need real hard facts; that way you'll get a result that has a chance of working.
    If PC suppresses the free expression of ideas... even those subjectively deemed wrong... then what remains is not the truth, it's lying-by-omission.
    Huntsman / Kasich 2020

  10. #280
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    Re: Political Correctness

    Quote Originally Posted by tuhaybey View Post
    No, you've still got the agency mixed up. Free speech is about letting everybody- society as a whole- say what it thinks. If enough people think something is despicable, and they say so, then the people who want to say that thing get drowned out and demeaned for saying it. That's what political correctness is- society firmly rejecting an idea. It isn't some special cadre of people that get to decide, it is society as a whole
    I know you think that I have it mixed up but it is really you that does by the mere fact that you keep contradicting yourself as I have already once pointing out.
    I will do so here again in this post of yours though...

    Free speech is about letting everybody- society as a whole- say what it thinks

    If enough people think something is despicable, and they say so, then the people who want to say that thing get drowned out and demeaned for saying it.


    Debate over really...

    I don't think that the majority is always right. There certainly have been cases where the majority has shouted down what latter turned out to be the right answer.
    Subjective nonsense being passed off as objective fact... next?

    For example, religious majorities have often shouted down science for years before the science won out. But, the theory of free speech is that in the long run, letting society freely express whatever views it wants tends to get you to a better answer than trying to control the conversation
    That is not an example... religious majorities are still free to express themselves and object to science without the scathing oppression that you condone...

    Do you not understand what "white privilege" is? You thought that meant "white people are racist?" Seriously, in 2015, that's where your level of understanding this stuff is at? WTF dude.
    Straw Man Fallacy

    A straw man argument is one that misrepresents a position in order to make it appear weaker than it actually is, refutes this misrepresentation of the position, and then concludes that the real position has been refuted. This, of course, is a fallacy, because the position that has been claimed to be refuted is different to that which has actually been refuted; the real target of the argument is untouched by it.


    Logical Fallacies» Straw Man Fallacy

    I clearly talked about Whiteness Studies in both posts and have not mentioned White Privilege once but I understand that you are getting your ass kicked in this debate and desperately want to misrepresent my argument in an attempt to appear correct and fluff your damaged ego.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The Supreme Court can't interpret The Constitution. They don't have that power.

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