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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

It sure as hell didn't start with reconstruction. This is from 1861, before the Civil War started:

OMG...Because You decide to jump into my posts, not knowing that I already compared BOTH the north and south as racist prior to and during the civil war, now I have to retype every thing I said, and then proceed to explain it to you, the newcomer to my posts apparently, what my intention for this post was?

Listen.... Im not going to keep responding to you if you are going to keep ASSuming that because I didn't mention something (like im supposed to be writing a god damned book of the entire history of every racist thing ever said or done) doesn't mean im ignoring it, or that Im claming it didn't happen.

My comments as to reconstruction had more to do with the activity that occurred, and the attitudes it generated then were passed down from offspring to offspring......... moving us right into your favorite time period that you won't let me fail to mention in ever post.... Jim Crow.

Reconstruction period gave white people a target to blame, and because of this it continued the attitude towards blacks that didn't get passed on in the North like it did in the South.



If I forgot some part that you want to bring up and throw in my face.... go read a sociology hate whitey book, and just pretend I posted it.

Im out... done responding to your trivial bull****.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The fact that you can't see that southerners aren't pointing out slaves in the North to JUSTIFY slavery tells me all I need to know about how you view this subject.

There is no JUSTIFICATION for Slavery. Southerners are simply pointing out the ignorance in this silly northern version of history that the civil war was about the evil evil racist slave holding south vs the good, noble, everyone is equal north.

The suggestion that it "wasn't as bad" or "they weren't as racist" (with no evidence of such) is actually a pathetic attempt at justifying the "goodness" and "awesomeness" of the North in this fictional history story that people like to tell.

If there's no justification for slavery, there's no justification for the Confederacy. If there's no justification for the Confederacy, there's no justification for its flag.

In your rush to emotion, you effectively nullified your own argument.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Why did you say, "New York was the main hub for slavery"? Were you trying to suggest that the north had more slaves than the south or something?
Read the history. New York was a marketplace. Even when their slavery numbers were 'only' around 20k, they were still handling ships until the end of that practice was forced on them, and sales until that also was forced to be stopped.

Ive never suggested they had more...only that if you are looking at HISTORY vs the hysteria so many of you apply, then you will see...no one comes out unscathed.

And BTW...since you insist on applying that stink to all southerners that support the flag of the Confederacy, didnt YOU at one time live in California? Are you a native?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So you really had nothing to say, just felt like you had to lash out?

Pointing out another of the fallacies of modern history that make Lincoln out to be this awesome good honest leader man.....

He was nothing of the sort..... And had it not been for the ending of slavery (which happened after he died btw)..... Lincoln would have been known as the guy who nearly turned us back into a country ruled by a tyrant.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Why did you say, "New York was the main hub for slavery"? Were you trying to suggest that the north had more slaves than the south or something?

Are you still not getting it....

The numbers don't matter.

1 Slave and 20 Slaves are equally immoral.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Pointing out another of the fallacies of modern history that make Lincoln out to be this awesome good honest leader man.....

He was nothing of the sort..... And had it not been for the ending of slavery (which happened after he died btw)..... Lincoln would have been known as the guy who nearly turned us back into a country ruled by a tyrant.

When did Lincoln become anathema to his own party?

You replied to nothing in my post, just ranted about how evil Lincoln was. Did his election lead to secession or not?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The fact that you can't see that southerners aren't pointing out slaves in the North to JUSTIFY slavery tells me all I need to know about how you view this subject.
Did you know that pointing out that the north had slaves was an argument used by the south to justify slavery?

There is no JUSTIFICATION for Slavery. Southerners are simply pointing out the ignorance in this silly northern version of history that the civil war was about the evil evil racist slave holding south vs the good, noble, everyone is equal north.

Well, slavery is evil. So it stands to reason that those who fought for slavery were more evil.

The suggestion that it "wasn't as bad" or "they weren't as racist" (with no evidence of such) is actually a pathetic attempt at justifying the "goodness" and "awesomeness" of the North in this fictional history story that people like to tell.

I can you show a whole list of the South's denials, excuses, blaming and demonizing the North...


Lost Cause of the South - RationalWiki
 
Re: Confederate Flag

If there's no justification for slavery, there's no justification for the Confederacy. If there's no justification for the Confederacy, there's no justification for its flag.

In your rush to emotion, you effectively nullified your own argument.

I don't recall claiming that the Confederacy was right......or that Slavery was right....

The Flag is A) Part of our nation's history and B) Part of our region's history.
There are plenty of "Regional Symbols" throughout the US. This one happens to be the one for the south.

It would be like the Yankees baseball team changing their logo, and people who love being a New Yorker (because yes, the NY Yankees logo is often used as a "symbol" of New York by non baseball fans) being told their old Yankees hat or "flag" offends everyone because its the symbol the Yankees used during the days when blacks weren't allowed in baseball or some such nonsense.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Are you still not getting it....

The numbers don't matter.

1 Slave and 20 Slaves are equally immoral.


The numbers mattered when the southerners wanted to count slaves as 3/5 of person for voting.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes, you're right. Secession had nothing to do with Lincoln or slavery :roll:
Is that what that said?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I don't recall claiming that the Confederacy was right......or that Slavery was right....

The Flag is A) Part of our nation's history and B) Part of our region's history.
There are plenty of "Regional Symbols" throughout the US. This one happens to be the one for the south.

It would be like the Yankees baseball team changing their logo, and people who love being a New Yorker (because yes, the NY Yankees logo is often used as a "symbol" of New York by non baseball fans) being told their old Yankees hat or "flag" offends everyone because its the symbol the Yankees used during the days when blacks weren't allowed in baseball or some such nonsense.

The confederate flag can fly over a historic civil war battle ground.

It can used at a museam.

But.....

The confederate flag can not fly at any state capital, or at any position of the government.


The flag of the confederacy is that of a foreign country.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I don't recall claiming that the Confederacy was right......or that Slavery was right....

The Flag is A) Part of our nation's history and B) Part of our region's history.
There are plenty of "Regional Symbols" throughout the US. This one happens to be the one for the south.

It would be like the Yankees baseball team changing their logo, and people who love being a New Yorker (because yes, the NY Yankees logo is often used as a "symbol" of New York by non baseball fans) being told their old Yankees hat or "flag" offends everyone because its the symbol the Yankees used during the days when blacks weren't allowed in baseball or some such nonsense.

You're doing everything in your power to say something without actually saying it. Which is pretty much par for the course with you.

This symbol has become a symbol of racism. Be that for good or bad. This is also true of the swastika, which was a Sanskrit symbol for good fortune. Yet if someone paints a swastika in a synagogue, do you think they're wishing good fortune to the Jews? Of course not, the symbol was corrupted by Hitler and your symbol was corrupted by the KKK. I'm sorry that happened but it did.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Is that what that said?

Well it was in response to my assertion that Lincoln's election was part of secession. So either you disagree with that Or you learned a whole bunch of new emotional arguments that you had to try out.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Did you know that pointing out that the north had slaves was an argument used by the south to justify slavery?
Please, show me that it was an argument "used by the south to justify slavery" and not just an argument used by those in the south (.)




Well, slavery is evil. So it stands to reason that those who fought for slavery were more evil.
Anyone who knows anything about history knows that the Civil War was not fought to end slavery.



I can you show a whole list of the South's denials, excuses, blaming and demonizing the North...


Lost Cause of the South - RationalWiki

And what dose that have to do with me?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Well it was in response to my assertion that Lincoln's election was part of secession. So either you disagree with that Or you learned a whole bunch of new emotional arguments that you had to try out.

Reading is your friend. Reread it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Anyone who knows anything about history knows that the Civil War was not fought to end slavery.

What?!?! Are you being sarcastic?!!

There was only ONE reason for the civil war: the south knew that the north was going to push for an end to slavery across the entire country.

Said another way, the south would rather commit TREASON for the sake of maintaining slavery. And the confederate flag is a symbol of that desire!!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The confederate flag can fly over a historic civil war battle ground.

It can used at a museam.

But.....

The confederate flag can not fly at any state capital, or at any position of the government.


The flag of the confederacy is that of a foreign country.

I've said the same thing.... however.....

It is displayed at a confederate monument in FRONT of the State Capitol on a much smaller pole than that on the top of the ACTUAL State House.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

What?!?! Are you being sarcastic?!!

There was only ONE reason for the civil war: the south knew that the north was going to push for an end to slavery across the entire country.

Said another way, the south would rather commit TREASON for the sake of maintaining slavery. And the confederate flag is a symbol of that desire!!

Treason? They fought and won independence during the Revolution... were named as Individual Soverign States, Joined a VOLUNTARY union.... and Left a VOLUNTARY union. Treason is a far stretch....

But, the war was fought to maintain the union (north's reason) and to defend its right to self governance (south's reason).

The reasons for secession do not = the reason for the WAR.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You keep going back to that illogical leap that says since there are overall 'other' considerations, it must therefore mean it is OK or that people are 'defending' slavery.
The flag does not represent 'slavery'. You can make it MEAN slavery if you like, but that is not what it means to the vast majority of people that grew up with it as parts of our lives. IF the people of any state wish to choose to stop flying the flag at their state buildings then that should be the choice they make and they should do it for the right reasons and NOT because a bunch of race bating morons from DC have created this 'cause' to stir **** up with. WHen you look across the country at the problems black America faces and you come to the conclusion that what you REALLY need to get spun up over is a flag and a TV show...that speaks volumes about you.

Can you fly a Confederate flag (or any flag) right now in front of your house? Yes? Then what are you getting all "spun up" for?


I did not create this thread. I am just talking about the subject matter. I am not getting spun up by a flag or some TV show. What TV show are you talking about? I never mentioned any TV show in this thread.

I think that you are just making up **** and trying to make me argue for it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Read the history. New York was a marketplace. Even when their slavery numbers were 'only' around 20k, they were still handling ships until the end of that practice was forced on them, and sales until that also was forced to be stopped.

Ive never suggested they had more...only that if you are looking at HISTORY vs the hysteria so many of you apply, then you will see...no one comes out unscathed.

So pointing out that slavery occurred in the north somehow diminishes slavery in the south? It just looks like your trying to water down slavery in the south so they won't look so bad.

And BTW...since you insist on applying that stink to all southerners that support the flag of the Confederacy, didnt YOU at one time live in California? Are you a native?

California was brought into the union as a free state. Yes, I lived there for some time, but I wasn't born there.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Please, show me that it was an argument "used by the south to justify slavery" and not just an argument used by those in the south.

Anyone who knows anything about history knows that the Civil War was not fought to end slavery.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

It's not even debatable....the Civil war was fought over slavery. To say otherwise, is just pure willful ignorance.

And what dose that have to do with me?

You asked me to show you an an argument used by the south to justify slavery. There are several listed in the link that I posted if you care to read it....

Lost Cause of the South - RationalWiki
 
Re: Confederate Flag

G'Day,mate. There are many flags that flew representing countries whose record on equality left much to be desired. The fundamental difference between those countries and the Confederate States of America, is that they did not make the slavery of another race a fundamental clause in their instrument of government, while the Confederacy made it integral to their Constitution.

G'Day to you too, mate...

I don't necessarily disagree with your comments.

My personal opinion is that I don't think that it should be displayed at State governments/institutions. But that's not saying that I opine that it should be banned from existence in the USA. I don't at all see it in the same light as say, Hitler's Swastika flag, which he replaced Germany's national flag with.

From a historical standpoint, the Confederacy was created by a incredible philosophical division within a nation, between its citizens - over whether there was a fundamental right to own slaves. And in the end...yes...the Confederate flag was symbolic of that division.

But lets not be naive here.

At the birth of our nation, the industrial age was at the zygote stage here in American so - "economically speaking" - a fair number of men associated with creating our government hated the idea of industrialization because they believed that our destiny was rooted in fruits of our labor that could only come from working the soil. Obviously - the labor part - is where slavery comes in. At least for the elite who were creating our nation.

Most of the founders/framers of the United States of America were elite white male slave owners. They made their fortunes using slaves. We don't think about this reality because for all practical purposes it was (and still is) "omitted as a fact of history" in education institutions from the 12 grade and under. Consequently, from an educational standpoint, our young minds were never engaged in a way to even consider that our founders were wrongfully involved in the ownership of other human beings, which were used for uncompensated labor and a considered to be commodities, in and of themselves.

I've been around a few decades. Until I went to college...just the thought of our founders being slave owners - was a foreign idea or concept. And while college level history doesn't often candy coat history - in my American History class...my mind just skipped over esoteric implications of our founders being slave owners, which should have jarred me, not only intellectually, but emotionally in some way.

I'm personally not aware of any generation that has been seriously educated about the staunch realities regarding our founders support of, and use of enslaved human beings (which of course they called property). Not only that, but many believed that they had an inalienable right to own a species of life resembling human beings to provide free labor and sell even at will like a John Deere Tractor.

Even today...by technical/propaganda default (IOWs - by reasons related to the historical gloss over or omission of facts presented to most people) - most folks don't indulge in seriously pondering the fact that our at the dawn of nation - its core economy - had much to do with the use of slave labor for enterprise purposes - and that included breeding and selling slaves. Should people ponder such? I think so. But from reading much of this thread, a lot of people would disagree.

So...I think that people should have the right to make bumper stickers, Tee-shirts bikinis and beer koozies that looks like a Confederate flag - or even fly one on their own property. And if doing such offends others, too bad. People have the right to be offended. And those who offend have a right to do that too as long as they don't, in some malicious way, cause injury or mortal harm to others.

After all...that's what a lot of people do the the United States flag. Some folks even burn them. Offensive? I'm betting to a lot of people..yes. But in the same vein, too bad. The 1st Amendment applies to both of these situations.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

G'Day,mate. There are many flags that flew representing countries whose record on equality left much to be desired. The fundamental difference between those countries and the Confederate States of America, is that they did not make the slavery of another race a fundamental clause in their instrument of government, while the Confederacy made it integral to their Constituion.

Oh...Before I forget...(and really didn't have enough character space in my previous post)....

What about the flag of England?

Between 1761 and 1808, British traders hauled 1,428,000 African captives across the Atlantic and pocketed $96.5 million – about $13 billion in value today – from selling them as slaves.

From 1500 to 1860, by very modest estimations, around 12 million Africans were traded into slavery in the Americas. In British vessels alone, 3.25 million Africans were shipped. These voyages were often very profitable. For instance, in the 17th century, the Royal Africa Company could buy an enslaved African with trade goods worth $5 and sell that person in the Americas for $32, making an average net profit of 38 percent per voyage.

Slave-owning planters and merchants who dealt in slaves and slave produce were among the richest people in 18th-century Britain, but many other British citizens benefited from the human trafficking industry.

What about the flag of France?

With over 1,600,000 enslaved Africans transported to the West Indies, France was clearly a major player in the trade. Its slave ports were a major contributor to the country’s economic advancements in the 18th century. Many of its cities on the west coast, such as Nantes, Lorient, La Rochelle, and Bordeaux, built their wealth through the major profits of triangular slave trade.

Between 1738 and 1745, from Nantes, France’s leading slave port, 55,000 slaves were taken to the New World in 180 ships. From 1713 to 1775, nearly 800 vessels in the slave trade sailed from Nantes.

What about the Netherland's?

The Dutch West India Company, a chartered company of Dutch merchants, was established in 1621 as a monopoly over the African slave trade to Brazil, the Caribbean and North America.

WIC had offices in Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Hoorn, Middelburg and Groningen, but one-fourth of Africans transported across the Atlantic by the company were moved in slave ships from Amsterdam. Almost all of the money that financed slave plantations in Suriname and the Antilles came from bankers in Amsterdam, just as many of the ships used to transport slaves were built there.

Many of the raw materials that were turned into finished goods in Amsterdam, such as sugar and coffee, were grown in the colonies using slave labor and then refined in factories in the Jordaan neighborhood.

Revenue from the goods produced with slave labor funded much of The Netherlands’ golden age in the 17th century, a period renowned for its artistic, literary, scientific, and philosophical achievements.

Slave labor created vast sources of wealth for the Dutch in the form of precious metals, sugar, tobacco, cocoa, coffee and cotton and other goods, and helped to fund the creation of Amsterdam’s beautiful and famous canals and city center.

What about Portugal's Flag?

Portugal was the first of all European countries to become involved in the Atlantic slave trade. From the 15th to 19th century, the Portuguese exported 4.5 million Africans as slaves to the Americas, making it Europe’s largest trafficker of human beings.

Slave labor was the driving force behind the growth of the sugar economy in Portugal’s colony of Brazil, and sugar was the primary export from 1600 to 1650. Gold and diamond deposits were discovered in Brazil in 1690, which sparked an increase in the importation of African slaves to power this newly profitable market.

And of course...there was Spain...but I don't have enough character space.

Top 6 Countries That Grew Filthy Rich From Enslaving Black People - Atlanta Blackstar

Just sayin....

Thanks, mate...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Can you fly a Confederate flag (or any flag) right now in front of your house? Yes? Then what are you getting all "spun up" for?


I did not create this thread. I am just talking about the subject matter. I am not getting spun up by a flag or some TV show. What TV show are you talking about? I never mentioned any TV show in this thread.

I think that you are just making up **** and trying to make me argue for it.
Its not just you but yes...there are a whole lot of people that are twisted over this fabricated outrage. It gives you a cause to help you feel all better about yourself. Its the equivalent of being worked up over the Redskins team name while you completely ignore the vast social ills infecting the American Indian population. Precisely the same thing.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So pointing out that slavery occurred in the north somehow diminishes slavery in the south? It just looks like your trying to water down slavery in the south so they won't look so bad.

California was brought into the union as a free state. Yes, I lived there for some time, but I wasn't born there.
Do you believe that California residents that proudly fly the bear also bear the brunt of racism that permeated California for decades as directed towards Asians?

And no...no one is diminishing the actions of the Southern slave states. No one has. Merely pointing out how silly you all look eating your own **** brownies.
 
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