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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Not necessarily, but that doesn't mean much considering there wasn't as much of an economic incentive to keep slaves around in the north as there was in the south. However, there was enough of a movement to keep the underground railroad operating... so there is that...



Interesting for you to bring up my having been a cop (yes, past tense) as some sort of pathetic excuse for a personal attack....

Because in my experiences, I have seen people who would rather be in jail (no freedom) and be fed than be on the streets (free) and be starving.

So.... while "principle" of your statement is true... and I concur.... however there are many who are actually in such dire straits (not those of us just talking about it) that may not necessarily agree with us.

Unless you've been so downtrodden you don't even know where your next meal is coming from..... you'll never really know.

Been there, done that. I have had periods of my life when I didn't know if I'd eat, and sometimes didn't.

And no, it wasn't a personal attack, pathetic or otherwise... It genuinely concerned me. Cops are supposed to defend people's rights and freedom, not take them away arbitrarily. It just seemed odd that you would proffer that slavery wasn't so bad.

I've actually enjoyed our exchanges.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Don't include me in with "those" in the north.. The secession of the south was all about slavery, the economy it provided and the political class that defended it. Was there a large abolitionist movement in the south as there was in the northern?

As for being better off as slaves... No one is better off if they are owned by someone else. I would rather starve and be free than to be "well taken care of" property. Regardless, a few well taken care of slaves does not justifying the atrocities perpetrated on many... Even if one, resulting from systemic slavery.

slavery had to become the issue as a way to get tzar nicholas to send a naval blockade, to keep ships from supplying the south also it was thought the english people wouldnt fight a war for slavery. the issue of slavery was just a tool to manipulate the outcome of the war. europe later paid for what they did.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Been there, done that. I have had periods of my life when I didn't know if I'd eat, and sometimes didn't.

And no, it wasn't a personal attack, pathetic or otherwise... It genuinely concerned me. Cops are supposed to defend people's rights and freedom, not take them away arbitrarily. It just seemed odd that you would proffer that slavery wasn't so bad.

I've actually enjoyed our exchanges.
I think you've misunderstood my position on bringing that up....
I at no point was claiming that I accept slavery as a "good thing" or that isn't wasn't bad......
Just trying to look at reality from a viewpoint more realistic than "on the principle" of the matter.
As for taking away rights arbitrarily.... How exactly am I doing that by trying to empathize with a position of the most extreme level of poverty imaginable?

And.... I know you aren't trying to compare your not having money for food a few nights with having No assets except rag clothing..... no family with any assets.... no job.... and in a time and place that didn't happen to take care of poor people like we do today (with soup kitchens and shelters and such)..... plus being set loose in a land where you don't really know what all is out there.... have no way of getting around except your feet.... and nobody likes you because of the color of your skin.

Try to actually put yourself in their sho...... their bare feet for a moment... Not just "in principle" but also imagine yourself in the same time period and place.

For just a moment..... it might be easy to believe that freedom isn't all its cracked up to be. (Disclaimer: I am not saying that slavery is preferential to freedom) (I also find it pathetic I have to add stupid ****ing disclaimers to my posts).
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Wow. Seriously?

Yes. They are members of the United States of America. Free speech allows individuals to fly it. The govt. shouldn't be endorsing that flag. It's a necessary step towards improving race relations. It represents treason. I'd cut federal funding to states that fly that flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes. They are members of the United States of America. Free speech allows individuals to fly it. The govt. shouldn't be endorsing that flag. It's a necessary step towards improving race relations. It represents treason. I'd cut federal funding to states that fly that flag.

A display of history is worthy of treason.... Wow.

No.. the government shouldn't be displaying it on their official flag pole.... if they wanted to take it down and display it in a case inside the state house with a little plague about the state's involvement in the civil war, that is perfectly reasonable.

As far as a "necessary step towards improving race relations" you are absolutely fooling yourself if you think the race mongers out there give two ****ing ****s about this. They will view it as a victory and continue to push harder towards the next thing that the rest of society will have to tip toe around in order to prevent from "OFFENDDDDDDIIIINGGG" someone. Only absolute morons think something like this is going to change race relations in the U.S.

There will still be ignorant racists sons o' bitches and ignorant race baiting morons out there.... one way or another. It won't change a single opinion.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

A display of history is worthy of treason.... Wow.

No.. the government shouldn't be displaying it on their official flag pole.... if they wanted to take it down and display it in a case inside the state house with a little plague about the state's involvement in the civil war, that is perfectly reasonable.

As far as a "necessary step towards improving race relations" you are absolutely fooling yourself if you think the race mongers out there give two ****ing ****s about this. They will view it as a victory and continue to push harder towards the next thing that the rest of society will have to tip toe around in order to prevent from "OFFENDDDDDDIIIINGGG" someone. Only absolute morons think something like this is going to change race relations in the U.S.

There will still be ignorant racists sons o' bitches and ignorant race baiting morons out there.... one way or another. It won't change a single opinion.

I am going to disagree here. The government should not be flying any flag other than the state and national flags, period. I mean you put a cross on government property and people go ape ****. A confederate battle flag is however OK? Make a cross on a state flagg and again with the faggotry. Put a stars and bars and it's OK?

Makes no sense, none.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I am going to disagree here. The government should not be flying any flag other than the state and national flags, period. I mean you put a cross on government property and people go ape ****. A confederate battle flag is however OK? Make a cross on a state flagg and again with the faggotry. Put a stars and bars and it's OK?

Makes no sense, none.

Apparently you didn't read my post at all. Lets try again... I'll add emphasis to the part you totally ignored.

Caine said:
A display of history is worthy of treason.... Wow.

No.. the government shouldn't be displaying it on their official flag pole.... if they wanted to take it down and display it in a case inside the state house with a little plague about the state's involvement in the civil war, that is perfectly reasonable.

As far as a "necessary step towards improving race relations" you are absolutely fooling yourself if you think the race mongers out there give two ****ing ****s about this. They will view it as a victory and continue to push harder towards the next thing that the rest of society will have to tip toe around in order to prevent from "OFFENDDDDDDIIIINGGG" someone. Only absolute morons think something like this is going to change race relations in the U.S.

There will still be ignorant racists sons o' bitches and ignorant race baiting morons out there.... one way or another. It won't change a single opinion.


I hope that helped.

Anything to say about the rest of my post where I point out that this is a symbolic gesture that does nothing for race relations????
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Apparently you didn't read my post at all. Lets try again... I'll add emphasis to the part you totally ignored.




I hope that helped.

Anything to say about the rest of my post where I point out that this is a symbolic gesture that does nothing for race relations????

That's awkward. I meant to say agree not disagree. Sorry it happens when posting to more than one person.

Of course instead of asking me what I meant you just assumed the worst and treat me like an asshole. No problem.

Typical.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That's awkward. I meant to say agree not disagree. Sorry it happens when posting to more than one person.

Of course instead of asking me what I meant you just assumed the worst and treat me like an asshole. No problem.

Typical.
Sorry. I am a little jumpy on the issue because the world seems to have lost their god damned minds.....
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Sorry. I am a little jumpy on the issue because the world seems to have lost their god damned minds.....

OK, No problem.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I think you've misunderstood my position on bringing that up....
I at no point was claiming that I accept slavery as a "good thing" or that isn't wasn't bad......
Just trying to look at reality from a viewpoint more realistic than "on the principle" of the matter.
As for taking away rights arbitrarily.... How exactly am I doing that by trying to empathize with a position of the most extreme level of poverty imaginable?

And.... I know you aren't trying to compare your not having money for food a few nights with having No assets except rag clothing..... no family with any assets.... no job.... and in a time and place that didn't happen to take care of poor people like we do today (with soup kitchens and shelters and such)..... plus being set loose in a land where you don't really know what all is out there.... have no way of getting around except your feet.... and nobody likes you because of the color of your skin.

Try to actually put yourself in their sho...... their bare feet for a moment... Not just "in principle" but also imagine yourself in the same time period and place.

For just a moment..... it might be easy to believe that freedom isn't all its cracked up to be. (Disclaimer: I am not saying that slavery is preferential to freedom) (I also find it pathetic I have to add stupid ****ing disclaimers to my posts).

We'll have to agree to disagree save one point. No one liking me because of the color of my skin. That is something I've only experienced briefly while doing mission work in Harlem and the Lower East side in the late 80s. That was the only time I've felt like the minority. Yet extremely appreciative of the experience.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

A display of history is worthy of treason.... Wow.

No.. the government shouldn't be displaying it on their official flag pole.... if they wanted to take it down and display it in a case inside the state house with a little plague about the state's involvement in the civil war, that is perfectly reasonable.

As far as a "necessary step towards improving race relations" you are absolutely fooling yourself if you think the race mongers out there give two ****ing ****s about this. They will view it as a victory and continue to push harder towards the next thing that the rest of society will have to tip toe around in order to prevent from "OFFENDDDDDDIIIINGGG" someone. Only absolute morons think something like this is going to change race relations in the U.S.

There will still be ignorant racists sons o' bitches and ignorant race baiting morons out there.... one way or another. It won't change a single opinion.

Sure, there will still be racists and race baiters. There always will be. That doesn't change the fact that the Confederate flag is a symbol of oppression. As long as state governments endorse that oppression it is an obstacle to improving race relations. You can't blame that on Al Sharpton and those like him.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

the Confederate Battle Flag in its design 13 stars for the original states in the form of an "X" for the 10th AMENDMENT.

slavery was the driving cause of the main issue of the war, it was the power of the federal government vs states governments which was the main issue.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Sure, there will still be racists and race baiters. There always will be. That doesn't change the fact that the Confederate flag is a symbol of oppression.
That applies to the American flag as well. Should we be banning the American flag too?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The point is not whether they "can" display it - the point is that you're denigrating something they hold near and dear. They are not the confused ones. The confused ones are those who think it is - or should be seen as - racist.
I have no idea how one can view the Confederacy as anything but a racist slave system, there is no historical escape from this basic, fundamental fact.




Your argument is becoming disjointed as you jump back and forth to prove some evasive point. There are undeniable similarties between the flag-banners and both traditional fascism and McCarthy's tactics. All three seek to quell opinions that differ from their own and to legislate thought. McCarthy wasn't just a "Wisconsin Senator." He launched a witch hunt against those he claimed supported communism. Just like now, people were pointing fingers at their neighbors - and McCarthy used it to his advantage. He extolled the evils of communism, although there was very little communism going around. Just as today, there is very little racism associated with the Confederate Flag, as you've been shown.
I have no idea how pointing out the fundamental point that the Confederacy was at base a racist slave system "quells opinion". It was used a symbol of terrorism by the KKK and extremists opposed to civil rights to intimidate, to remind Blacks of their subjugation. There is no reason for US states to be endorsing, displaying this symbol of institution slavery. There is no possibility of the flag escaping from the fact that it represents a racist slave system, ever, since the Confederacy never compromised on this fundamental point.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That applies to the American flag as well. Should we be banning the American flag too?
No, since the govt that is represented has changed. Even the flag has changed. The Confederate govt never did change its fundamental position.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

the Confederate Battle Flag in its design 13 stars for the original states in the form of an "X" for the 10th AMENDMENT.

No, the battle flag (used semi officially by the main CSA field Army and some what regularly by other field armies) was designed after the Saint Andrew's cross motiff. This motiff is common and is also used in the Scottish and Imperial Russian flags. As for the stars, they represent the states that seceeded, plus Kentucky.

Kentucky was originally nueteral, but according to the CSA intended to seceed had unionists not comandeered the state legislature. Of course, the union version is that Kentucky intended to be a union state and it was the confedrates who had attempted to comandeer the state legislature.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That applies to the American flag as well. Should we be banning the American flag too?

The American Flag has been altered since it's days of overt oppression.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Alexander Stephens said:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

False
....the declaration of independence laid the foundation of america, but that declaration would not have be passed by the continental congress had it tried to end slavery by just 3 states ....... the other states wanted to end slavery, ....... the declaration was needed at all cost to unite the colonies against Britain.......and there is no founding principle at blacks are inferior.

under the articles of confederation, the central government ENDED any SLAVERY when it had authority TO DO SO....slavery was illegal by the Northwest Ordinance......but could not be ended by the central government among the states, because states were sovereign and independent states with their own militias and own laws.

the states sent delegates from every state but RI to the constitutional convention , those delegates were sent their to fix the articles of confederation not create a new constitution, but a new constitution was created and that constitution is about federalism the separation of powers between the states and the new federal government .......and that is all it about......with the states still remaining sovereign and independent states.

the bill of rights is about restrictions placed on the federal government, in addition to the federal government being limited government.

there are no foundations laid by the AOC central government or the federal government that blacks are subhuman.......

where the government had the power to end slavery they did it, and to point out that slavery was in a proposal made at the convention which would have made it a legal practice, the founders stuck it out saying..........."there is nothing legal about slavery"


you need your facts straight.
Um, that is not from the DoI. wanna try again?
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

the DOI laid the foundation of the u.s.......it is america founding principles..
Again, what I quoted, what you claimed was "false", was not the DoI. This was a major non-sequitur.

Alexander Stephens:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.​
 
Re: Confederate Flag

this is an error of mine, because i was not talking about the southern states as you were, but was talking about our nations's beginning and its foundation.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No, the battle flag (used semi officially by the main CSA field Army and some what regularly by other field armies) was designed after the Saint Andrew's cross motiff. This motiff is common and is also used in the Scottish and Imperial Russian flags. As for the stars, they represent the states that seceeded, plus Kentucky.

Kentucky was originally nueteral, but according to the CSA intended to seceed had unionists not comandeered the state legislature. Of course, the union version is that Kentucky intended to be a union state and it was the confedrates who had attempted to comandeer the state legislature.

i'll buy this.....however what it said has been put forth before.
 
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