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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

They were fiscal liberals/Federalists
WTF!?!
Southern Dems were in no manner what so ever Federalists, not before the Civil War, not after. FFS, what a complete derp of a statement!
... and they liked the use of government control to fit their culture norms.
Sure....STATE govt control, STATES RIGHTS.....wow.
The democrat party hasn't changed in it's foundation
THE SOUTHERN DEMS SURE DID
... Just when they couldn't have that social control anymore they retreated to try to protect their own views/liberties... that's why some started voting republican.
If this is code for Southern cons switched sides through the 60's and 70's, yes that is what I said.
Democrats* ...They can't change the meaning of the flag, you can't change the name
No one is changing a name, it is just that Southern cons went from Dems to the GOP, just as the Black vote went from the GOP to the Dems.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

lol, I am sure I can find quotes that match what I am saying too... I never said slavery/racism wasn't there and wasn't a part of the confederacy, I am saying the conflict was much broader than that. Even to the republicans at the time it had nothing to do with slavery but seceding from the union. Lincoln actually supported a mandate that states have a constitutional right to either banish or maintain slavery.

Everything for the south revolved around the protection, perpetuation and expansion of slavery.

Everything.

The old tired chestnut of the Corwin Amendment doesn't go very far.

It was a last ditch effort, which most all knew stood no chance of survival.

Lincoln had nothing to do with its passage. By the time he addressed it, most states had already seceded. It was a futility, and most all saw it as such.

At that point too - the south had already commenced hostilities. They were bound and determined to go to war and nothing was going to stop them.

The Southrons made it clear in their many declarations of independence and in a boatload of other statements, actions, laws and their own written constitution, the protection of Slavery was at the base of all.

It was the lifeblood (literally) of their economy, and they knew it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Everything for the south revolved around the protection, perpetuation and expansion of slavery.

Everything.

The old tired chestnut of the Corwin Amendment doesn't go very far.

It was a last ditch effort, which most all knew stood no chance of survival.

Lincoln had nothing to do with its passage. By the time he addressed it, most states had already seceded. It was a futility, and most all saw it as such.

At that point too - the south had already commenced hostilities. They were bound and determined to go to war and nothing was going to stop them.

The Southrons made it clear in their many declarations of independence and in a boatload of other statements, actions, laws and their own written constitution, the protection of Slavery was at the base of all.

It was the lifeblood (literally) of their economy, and they knew it.

“Our country demands all our strength, all our energies. To resist the powerful combination now forming against us will require every man at his place. If victorious, we will have everything to hope for in the future. If defeated, nothing will be left for us to live for.”
Robert E. Lee

“All that the South has ever desired was that the Union as established by our forefathers should be preserved and that the government as originally organized should be administered in purity and truth.”
Robert E. Lee

“The Northern onslaught upon slavery was no more than a piece of specious humbug designed to conceal its desire for economic control of the Southern states.”
Charles Dickens, 1862

“As for the South, it is enough to say that perhaps eighty per cent. of her armies were neither slave-holders, nor had the remotest interest in the institution. No other proof, however, is needed than the undeniable fact that at any period of the war from its beginning to near its close the South could have saved slavery by simply laying down its arms and returning to the Union.”
Major General John B. Gordon, from his book, Causes of the Civil War.

These are quotes as well showing a much different picture on what people were fighting about.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No, it doesn't. Context. The will of the people when this nation was formed was the will of the white male people.
Uh, that is the point I made, the South wanted the will to be of Whites, for Whites, in states. The context was the Civil War.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Settle down cowboy...
Southern Dems were in no manner what so ever Federalists, not before the Civil War, not after. FFS, what a complete derp of a statement!Sure....STATE govt control, STATES RIGHTS.....wow.THE SOUTHERN DEMS SURE DIDIf this is code for Southern cons switched sides through the 60's and 70's, yes that is what I said.
Only because they didn't have national control, the republicans were for states rights, and Lincoln himself.

No one is changing a name, it is just that Southern cons went from Dems to the GOP, just as the Black vote went from the GOP to the Dems.
Some did... but the foundations of the Republican party never changed, nor the democratic party.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

What I am talking about is the shortsightedness of the Antebellum South. Slavery was inefficient, it stifled growth...even with the Gin. But the South insisted on an archaic system because of ideology that that Blacks are inferior, that White slave holding is the natural order of things.

Indeed the Northern system of wealth, position and class won the day and it was much more "efficient" for the North to have wage slaves of lower class and not have any [primarily financial] responsibility towards them. They still had functional slavery without the need to purchase and maintain the slaves.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

“Our country demands all
...




================== ^ ===============

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition." -Alexander Stephens

====================================
Have you by any chance read the The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States?

Here: The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

If you don't have time to read them, just do a Control ^ F with the word "slave."

Just for ****s and grins.

Let us know what you come up with.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Uh, that is the point I made, the South wanted the will to be of Whites, for Whites, in states. The context was the Civil War.

Not wanted the will to be, the will of the people in those states was to keep slavery in those states. Somehow, not having the vote or the position in society anywhere above a slave, women gained the right to vote and did it the right way constitutionally.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Settle down cowboy...
Only because they didn't have national control, the republicans were for states rights, and Lincoln himself.


Some did... but the foundations of the Republican party never changed, nor the democratic party.

what

in

the

hell???
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Settle down cowboy...
Only because they didn't have national control, the republicans were for states rights, and Lincoln himself.
Damn, that is just so wrong.


Some did... but the foundations of the Republican party never changed, nor the democratic party.
I know your argument relies entirely on the ignoring of the ideological divide between liberal Northern Democrats and conservative Southern Dems that existed for decades, an ignoring of the massive shift in the Southern White vote from "45 to '80...and the opposite shift in the Black vote in the same period. Your arguments understanding of the parties is seriously in error. You keep arguing in terms of foundations, ignoring the demographics.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Abolished, no. Taken off of state property, yes. I believe that a person has the right to fly whatever flag they want to on their own personal property, but that states should only fly the American flag and their own state's flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Abolished, no. Taken off of state property, yes. I believe that a person has the right to fly whatever flag they want to on their own personal property, but that states should only fly the American flag and their own state's flag.

I agree.

But I imagine the next target of the banners will be that Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida and North Carolina have elements of various CSA flags or CSA battle emblems directly incorperated into their state flags. Then there is the Maryland State song advocating sessession and the suspiscious figure in grey on the Kentucky flag- no doubt representing an apolitical Kentucky colonel.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

That's a great example of a false equivalency. The Confederacy held as immutable divine law that blacks were not equal to whites, somehow less than human...and the Nazis held as immutable law that Jews (and other minorities and disabled people) were not equal to Aryans, somehow less than human. The only real difference is that while the Confederates saw blacks as property and enslaved them from cradle to grave (and could rape or kill them with legal impunity), the Nazis not only enslaved the 'lesser races' but also killed them en masse.

So...no, this is not a case of a violation of Godwin's Law - it's simply pointing out that what the Confederacy was doing was in fact a heck of a lot closer to life under the Nazis than in the abolitionist Union states.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I agree.

But I imagine the next target of the banners will be that Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Mississippi, Arkansas, Florida and North Carolina have elements of various CSA flags or CSA battle emblems directly incorperated into their state flags. Then there is the Maryland State song advocating sessession and the suspiscious figure in grey on the Kentucky flag- no doubt representing an apolitical Kentucky colonel.

The Confederate flag should not be banned - First Amendment, and all that - but flying that flag should be seen in the same light as flying the flag of Nazi Germany...for the very reasons I point out in reply #216 in this thread.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That's a great example of a false equivalency. The Confederacy held as immutable divine law that blacks were not equal to whites, somehow less than human...and the Nazis held as immutable law that Jews (and other minorities and disabled people) were not equal to Aryans, somehow less than human. The only real difference is that while the Confederates saw blacks as property and enslaved them from cradle to grave (and could rape or kill them with legal impunity), the Nazis not only enslaved the 'lesser races' but also killed them en masse.

So...no, this is not a case of a violation of Godwin's Law - it's simply pointing out that what the Confederacy was doing was in fact a heck of a lot closer to life under the Nazis than in the abolitionist Union states.

So did the union.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -Abraham Lincoln
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Settle down cowboy...
Only because they didn't have national control, the republicans were for states rights, and Lincoln himself.


Some did... but the foundations of the Republican party never changed, nor the democratic party.

Dude. The Republicans were once the party of liberals, particularly in the generations immediately following the Civil War.

And politics in the South has ALWAYS been strongly conservative, from the founding of our nation until today (and I would know - I grew up there, with my family line in the same little cemetery in the MS Delta going back to just after the Civil War). It was strongly conservative when it was the Democratic "Solid South" for several generations, and it remains strongly conservative today as the strongest base of the Republican party. The switch happened due to the Southern backlash to the Civil Rights Act (the conservative white Southerners blamed the Dems for getting it passed) and because of Nixon's "Southern Strategy", wherein he appealed to "state's rights" in order to attract what his campaign manager called "negrophobes".

So...if you really are of the opinion that the foundations of the parties "never changed"...dude, I suggest y'all go learn some American political history....
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So did the union.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." -Abraham Lincoln

'Scuse you, but whatever Lincoln said, it was NOT legal to OWN slaves in the Union, it was NOT legal to rape or kill blacks in the Union just because the white owner wanted to. In the Union, if a black was raped by a white, it was RAPE, and not just "use of property" as it was in the South. In the Union, if a black man was killed, it was MURDER, and not just "disposal of property" as it was in the South.

In these ways the South was NOT like the North, but was IDENTICAL to Nazi Germany.

I grew up loving the Confederacy, loving the Confederate flag, and the legacy of the South...until I really began to understand what the legacy of the Confederacy really was. You haven't reached that same level of understanding that yet.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Confederate flag should not be banned - First Amendment, and all that - but flying that flag should be seen in the same light as flying the flag of Nazi Germany...for the very reasons I point out in reply #216 in this thread.

Ok, and what about the CSA influenced flags of about seven states (three directly influenced)? Then there is the Maryland state song.... .

'Scuse you, but whatever Lincoln said, it was NOT legal to OWN slaves in the Union, it was NOT legal to rape or kill blacks in the Union just because the white owner wanted to. In the Union, if a black was raped by a white, it was RAPE, and not just "use of property" as it was in the South. In the Union, if a black man was killed, it was MURDER, and not just "disposal of property" as it was in the South.

Actually, slavery was legal in the union states of KY, MI, MD, DL, WV. It was also legal in Washington DC and amongst pro union (but not pro CSA) indian factions.
In the Union, if a black man was killed, it was MURDER
No white man was going to kill a black man in Ohio, Illinois or Indiana as all three union states banned slavery and free blacks.

No doubt that the New Yorks whites who "celebrated" the Emancipation Proclamation by launching an anti black pogrom were systematically tried for murder... . http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html
 
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Confederate Flag

Ok, and what about the CSA influenced flags of about seven states (three directly influenced)? Then there is the Maryland state song.... .

Destroy them, bury them, rejoice at their removal and destruction.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

what

in

the

hell???
Just because Lincoln wanted to maintain the union does not mean he is against state rights.... just because he advocated against slavery as a moral wrong does Not mean he is against state rights... Lincoln actually advocated for a amendment to the constitution for slavery to be legal and up to the states....Corwin Amendment
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes, that is one difference. While the Nazi symbol does have an older meaning in Buddhist and Hindu cultures and thus does not only represent an evil cause, the Confederate Flag only represents an evil cause. An attempt to preserve the evil institution of slavery is all the Confederate Flag represents.

Not even close. The flag was derived from the Scottish flag. Are they now guilty by association?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Let's see what the creator of the CSA flag had to say about it:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the Whiteman over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause...Such a flag would take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations and be hailed by the civilized world as the 'Whiteman's Flag.'"

That Battle flag was incorporated into the confederacy's second official flag :

"On May 1, 1863, the Confederate Congress adopted a second official flag that consisted of a battle flag in the upper left-hand corner on a field of white. Designed by William T. Thompson, editor of the Savannah Morning News, the flag was designated "Whiteman's Flag."

Article - Southern Changes Digital Archive

You don't even need that. Just read the Confederate Constitutions or their Declarations of Independence.



What the South was fighting for was the perpetuation and expansion of human bondage and White Supremacy. That's what the CSA was Founded on.

Just stop it.

Stop it now.

Great username. But you need to look in to some history.
 
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