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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

I'd address the first part, but you'll just repeat the same arguments so there's no point.

As to this part, I have no idea what it means to be a "US Civil War Veteran." Do you mean they're veterans of the Civil War fought in the U.S. as opposed to on some other continent? If so, OK, I'll concede that point. And it's not a "U.S. Memorial." It's on state property and I have seen nothing to indicate the Feds funded a dime of the cost.

And we disagree about whether a Confederate memorial is an "appropriate place for the Rebel flag to fly." The SC legislature, Governor, the local Chamber of Commerce and many others decided it wasn't an appropriate place to fly that divisive symbol. Apparently 54 years of controversy was enough. They might be stubborn in the South, but they're not stupid, especially when being stubborn interferes with bidness.....

Well said.

Recently, some folks wanted Confederate vets to be nominated for the Florida Veterans Hall of Fame.

They were told: NOPE.


"The executive director of the state Department of Veterans Affairs, Mike Prendergast, rejected all three for failing to comply with a requirement to have an honorable discharge from the U.S. armed forces, which he said does not include the Confederate States of America."

[h=3]Gov. Rick Scott and Cabinet refuse to honor Confederates[/h]
 
Re: Confederate Flag

^ doesn't recognize the irony.
You see what is not there.


Well said.

Recently, some folks wanted Confederate vets to be nominated for the Florida Veterans Hall of Fame.

They were told: NOPE.


"The executive director of the state Department of Veterans Affairs, Mike Prendergast, rejected all three for failing to comply with a requirement to have an honorable discharge from the U.S. armed forces, which he said does not include the Confederate States of America."

[h=3]Gov. Rick Scott and Cabinet refuse to honor Confederates[/h]
Irrelevant to their status as US Veterans.
Not all Veterans have a Honorable discharge.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

You see what is not there.

Why would it be appropriate to fly a Rebel flag over a "U.S. Memorial" to "U.S. Civil War Veterans." :doh

Irrelevant to their status as US Veterans.
Not all Veterans have have a Honorable discharge either.

The issue wasn't whether or not their discharge was "Honorable" or not, it was that those men did not serve in the U.S. armed forces.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

But every single Confederate Vet was "dishonorably discharged" as far as the U.S. is concerned.

lolo
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I'd address the first part, but you'll just repeat the same arguments so there's no point.
You had no valid argument anyways.


As to this part, I have no idea what it means to be a "US Civil War Veteran." Do you mean they're veterans of the Civil War fought in the U.S. as opposed to on some other continent? If so, OK, I'll concede that point. And it's not a "U.S. Memorial." It's on state property and I have seen nothing to indicate the Feds funded a dime of the cost.
It is a status conferred upon them by the US. It matters not which war they fought in.
The Veteran status is that of US Veteran, and in this specific case one with limited benefits.
The memorial is in the US. So yeah you should have been able to understand the usage was not meant as a specific. But since you couldn't, substitute Government for US.


And we disagree about whether a Confederate memorial is an "appropriate place for the Rebel flag to fly." The SC legislature, Governor, the local Chamber of Commerce and many others decided it wasn't an appropriate place to fly that divisive symbol. Apparently 54 years of controversy was enough. They might be stubborn in the South, but they're not stupid, especially when being stubborn interferes with bidness.....
And again. Caving to political correctness doesn't mean it was a correct decision.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It is a status conferred upon them by the US. It matters not which war they fought in.
The Veteran status is that of US Veteran, and in this specific case one with limited benefits.

Well, "no benefits" is the end point of "limited" so I guess you win that one....

And US Veteran memorial with a Confederate flag....hmmmm......

The memorial is in the US. So yeah you should have been able to understand the usage was not meant as a specific. But since you couldn't, substitute Government for US.

No, you are making the argument that the U.S. (Feds) conferred some recognition on the Confederate soldiers. So you don't get to substitute U.S. for "state" and "U.S. Veteran" for "Confederate veteran" when the mood strikes you. It matters whether the memorial is Federal, state, local, private. The memorial has no blessing from the U.S. The U.S. didn't fly the CSA Rebel flag. The state of S.C. did that. The U.S. never paid a dime of pension benefits to Confederate veterans. Some states did pay pensions to those Confederate veterans. In the context of what you're arguing, those distinctions matter.

And again. Caving to political correctness doesn't mean it was a correct decision.

Well, that's true. And that the state went against the wishes of the historically ignorant and/or Lost Cause types also doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Did you read the article?

Yes. Read the article by the Sons of Confederate veterans member years ago.

Did you bother to read the further in this thread where it has been extensively discussed, including the text of that Act?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes. Read the article by the Sons of Confederate veterans member years ago.

Did you bother to read the further in this thread where it has been extensively discussed, including the text of that Act?
Yes I have read your arguments, however, I don't think you actually understood the symbolism behind the movement. If the leaders like President Mackinly thought they were right in the way they handled the south then why put forth a symbolic gesture like this Act?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes I have read your arguments, however, I don't think you actually understood the symbolism behind the movement. If the leaders like President Mackinly thought they were right in the way they handled the south then why put forth a symbolic gesture like this Act?

You'll have to be specific. McKinley was assassinated in 1901. The act we're talking about was in 1958, Eisenhower was POTUS, and after the last Confederate veteran had died. So the act providing them pension benefits was nothing more than a gesture, perhaps of good will. So what "symbolism" and what "movement" are you referring to?

And how does any of that relate to the question we're discussing about flying the Rebel flag on a state owned memorial to Confederate veterans, Southerners, who fought for the CSA against the U.S.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You'll have to be specific. McKinley was assassinated in 1901. The act we're talking about was in 1958, Eisenhower was POTUS, and after the last Confederate veteran had died. So the act providing them pension benefits was nothing more than a gesture, perhaps of good will. So what "symbolism" and what "movement" are you referring to?

And how does any of that relate to the question we're discussing about flying the Rebel flag on a state owned memorial to Confederate veterans, Southerners, who fought for the CSA against the U.S.

...for the perpetual right to own Black People.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You'll have to be specific. McKinley was assassinated in 1901.
...

He also was pretty hep on the idea of seizing and occupying the Philippines to "uplift and Christianize" the Filipinos.

And one other word, just one, on that affair:

Rosebud.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You'll have to be specific. McKinley was assassinated in 1901. The act we're talking about was in 1958, Eisenhower was POTUS, and after the last Confederate veteran had died. So the act providing them pension benefits was nothing more than a gesture, perhaps of good will. So what "symbolism" and what "movement" are you referring to?

And how does any of that relate to the question we're discussing about flying the Rebel flag on a state owned memorial to Confederate veterans, Southerners, who fought for the CSA against the U.S.

If you read the article I posted he started the movement that led to said Act. At the turn of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, a move in the North was made to reconcile with Southerners. President McKinley was instrumental in this movement. When the Spanish-American War concluded successfully in December 1898, President McKinley used this as an opportunity to “mend the fences" On 14 December 1898 he gave a speech in which he urged reconciliation based on the outstanding service of Southerners during the recent war with Spain. Remember, as part of the conciliation, several former Confederate officers were commissioned as generals to include former Confederate cavalry general, Wheeler. He said this to congress

“…every soldier’s grave made during our unfortunate civil war [sic] is a tribute to American valor [my emphasis]… And the time has now come… when in the spirit of fraternity we should share in the care of the graves of the Confederate soldiers…The cordial feeling now happily existing between the North and South prompts this gracious act and if it needed further justification it is found in the gallant loyalty to the Union and the flag so conspicuously shown in the year just passed by the sons and grandsons of those heroic dead.”
The response from Congress to this plea was magnanimous and resulted in the Appropriations Act of FY 1901 (below).


per the article from the veteran today's link, I gave.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

And 60 years later, Congress gave a benefit

that no Confederate soldier benefited from.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

And 60 years later, Congress gave a benefit

that no Confederate soldier benefited from.
And that still not the point, I was making it was a symbolic gesture to make peace with the south.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Why would it be appropriate to fly a Rebel flag over a "U.S. Memorial" to "U.S. Civil War Veterans." :doh
Okay, you are just playing games now. Flying a Rebel flag (VA Confederate Battle Flag) which is a universal representation (not just VA), over a Memorial to the Confederacy is appropriate.


The issue wasn't whether or not their discharge was "Honorable" or not, it was that those men did not serve in the U.S. armed forces.
As I clearly stated it was irrelevant. I added an additional point and said "either".

And yes "Honorable Discharge" was part of the criteria under US Armed Forces. They did not meet that criteria. It does not mean that they are not US Veterans.
And no one said the Confederate Soldiers were Veterans of the US Armed Forces, only that they were US Veterans, which they are.
Btw, the conveyance of the Veteran status in that Chapter does not distinguish different Veteran titles for US and Confederate Military service. They are simply Civil War veterans, US by virtue of the body granting the status.
Which is the same for foreigners who have served in our military. They are US Veterans.


Well, "no benefits" is the end point of "limited" so I guess you win that one....
:doh This isn't about winning.


No, you are making the argument that the U.S. (Feds) conferred some recognition on the Confederate soldiers. So you don't get to substitute U.S. for "state" and "U.S. Veteran" for "Confederate veteran" when the mood strikes you.
You are making an absurd argument.
You know what we are talking about yet feigning ignorance. You can stop that game anytime.


It matters whether the memorial is Federal, state, local, private. The memorial has no blessing from the U.S. The U.S. didn't fly the CSA Rebel flag. The state of S.C. did that.
No, as pointed out, you should have understood the argument. But instead of admitting that you choose to play a silly game. :doh
The Flag was flying over a Confederate War Memorial which honors fallen Confederate soldiers, who by US Code are US Veterans.
It was an appropriate place to Display the flag, regardless of whether it is on private or public property.


The U.S. never paid a dime of pension benefits to Confederate veterans.
Irrelevant to the discussion. The status is still there regardless. Again, it is a limited benefit, just as other veterans have limited benefit. They are all still US Veterans. Their limited benefits does not change their status as a US Veteran.


Some states did pay pensions to those Confederate veterans.
Yes they did, which is also irrelevant, especially as the argument was not made. But for the state to **** on it's soldiers that were willing to put their life on the line for it is disgusting.



In the context of what you're arguing, those distinctions matter.
No they don't. The limited benefit doesn't change their status as a Government recognized US Veteran.


And that the state went against the wishes of the historically ignorant and/or Lost Cause types also doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.
As lame as it is irrelevant and clearly places you in the category of having no valid argument.





But every single Confederate Vet was "dishonorably discharged" as far as the U.S. is concerned.
lolo
How cute, you have no valid argument so now want to make even more absurd arguments. :doh
Lame.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

If you read the article I posted he started the movement that led to said Act. At the turn of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, a move in the North was made to reconcile with Southerners. President McKinley was instrumental in this movement. When the Spanish-American War concluded successfully in December 1898, President McKinley used this as an opportunity to “mend the fences" On 14 December 1898 he gave a speech in which he urged reconciliation based on the outstanding service of Southerners during the recent war with Spain. Remember, as part of the conciliation, several former Confederate officers were commissioned as generals to include former Confederate cavalry general, Wheeler. He said this to congress

“…every soldier’s grave made during our unfortunate civil war [sic] is a tribute to American valor [my emphasis]… And the time has now come… when in the spirit of fraternity we should share in the care of the graves of the Confederate soldiers…The cordial feeling now happily existing between the North and South prompts this gracious act and if it needed further justification it is found in the gallant loyalty to the Union and the flag so conspicuously shown in the year just passed by the sons and grandsons of those heroic dead.”
The response from Congress to this plea was magnanimous and resulted in the Appropriations Act of FY 1901 (below).


per the article from the veteran today's link, I gave.

You are absolutely correct. We should celebrate their AMERICAN valor. To celebrate CONFEDERATE REBEL valor would be wishing either than the nation collapsed into two divisions OR that the confederates had won the war to keep slavery.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You are absolutely correct. We should celebrate their AMERICAN valor. To celebrate CONFEDERATE REBEL valor would be wishing either than the nation collapsed into two divisions OR that the confederates had won the war to keep slavery.
So you ignore the point he was making..."
 
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