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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Absentglare said:
I generally agree with this.

I hope that everyone is taught an accurate historical narrative. And i hope that individuals generally elect to be considerate of historical context. But i absolutely believe that none of that should be forced.
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Holy ****...

Did it really just take over 1800 posts for me to find out we pretty much agree on this?
 
Black Dog said:
But it was about slavery so it's not seen as positive.
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--------------------


If The War of Northern Aggression aka The Civil War was "about slavery" why, then was the selectively liberating Emancipation Proclamation only declared after 2 years of fighting during which the North was losing & after the "Draft Rebellions" in N.Y. & elsewhere.

Please remember that the E.P. only liberated slaves in the states that had already succeeded but left slavery intact in the States fighting with the North, therefore it was simply a meaningless grab for the moral High Ground & to justify the institutionalized plundering.

I cannot think of any examples in which Industrialized nations have existed, peacefully next to agrarian societies rich in natural resources without contriving some excuse for seizing those resources. For example, the European Colonial Powers didn't form Colonies in Africa to Christianize Africans, they went there for the natural resources.

Another of the many different reasons for the "Civil War" was that the North was settled primarily by the Puritans while the south was primarily settled by England's Royalist Cavaliers. Essentially, the seeds of differing lifestyles, Religions etc England's Civil War were transplanted in the American colonies.

As I'm sure you know, Lincoln despised Black people & his initial post-War plan was not to welcome then to his Northern neighborhoods but to, literally, ship them back to Africa.


Finally, I voted "No" because I see how the Confederate Flag is used by Civil War re-enactors as an exacting & harmless hobby that is both educational for school kids, beneficial to modern day Military career Officers in the study of tactics & to supplement Movie productions.

Because I'm a blacksmith, I've learned a lot by making reproduction Civil War Medical artifacts, cannon parts, cooking equipment, weaponry & countless odd tools used while digging trenches, building the Ironclads & ill-fated submarine.

I have yet to see hatred in any of these re enactors / historians. I suspect that the same is true to individuals interested in their family history.

I don't display a Confederate flag even though one of my non slave owning ancestors fought for the South. I wouldn't display one, publicly, simply because it may be misinterpreted & hurtful to some of my neighbors.

I doubt if I've changed your mind but hope to have shown you a different side of the issue



Thanks
 
Caine said:
Holy ****...

Did it really just take over 1800 posts for me to find out we pretty much agree on this?
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Hey man this stuff is polarizing, people get upset.

I thought i tried to make it clear that i don't want to make some law banning the flag altogether. I hope that people find new ways to show their southern pride, using symbols that have not been used by hate groups. I don't think waving that flag around makes you a racist. I can accept that it doesn't mean that to a lot of people. But, well, i think people should individually come to be considerate, and shouldn't get all upset when they learn that there's more meaning attached to a symbol than what they've always believed.
 
B'smith said:
--------------------
If The War of Northern Aggression aka The Civil War was "about slavery" why, then was the selectively liberating Emancipation Proclamation only declared after 2 years of fighting during which the North was losing & after the "Draft Rebellions" in N.Y. & elsewhere. ...

Please remember that the E.P. only liberated slaves in the states that had already succeeded but left slavery intact in the States fighting with the North, therefore it was simply a meaningless grab for the moral High Ground & to justify the institutionalized plundering.
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*sigh*
For the gazillionth time:

The South went to war to protect, preserve and expand slavery.

The North went to war to preserve the Union.

Only midway did it become about abolition of Slavery for the North.

As far as the EP -

Literally tens of thousands were freed immediately by the Emancipation Proclamation.

It was a brilliant tactical measure, a brilliant war measure --

and it had a profound affect.

Part of the EP also included an invite to those slaves -- telling them 'come on over' -- and escape the tyranny of the confederates to go fight for the Union.

And indeed, nearly 200,000 black troops helped in the Union cause.

As I'm sure you know, Lincoln despised Black people & his initial post-War plan was not to welcome then to his Northern neighborhoods but to, literally, ship them back to Africa.
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Voluntary Colonization. Voluntary.

The American Colonization Society, the idea of which Lincoln subscribed to was founded decades earlier by abolitionists, and was embraced by quite a number of major statesmen of the time.

James Madison was a member.

American Colonization Society membership certificate signed by James Madison, 1833. (Gilder Lehrman Collection)

When Lost Causers tell the story though, they forget to mention the plan was one that was voluntary.

To hear them say it, they have Lincoln forceably shipping em off, en mass.

Not true.
 
B'smith said:
--------------------


If The War of Northern Aggression aka The Civil War was "about slavery" why, then was the selectively liberating Emancipation Proclamation only declared after 2 years of fighting during which the North was losing & after the "Draft Rebellions" in N.Y. & elsewhere.

Please remember that the E.P. only liberated slaves in the states that had already succeeded but left slavery intact in the States fighting with the North, therefore it was simply a meaningless grab for the moral High Ground & to justify the institutionalized plundering.

I cannot think of any examples in which Industrialized nations have existed, peacefully next to agrarian societies rich in natural resources without contriving some excuse for seizing those resources. For example, the European Colonial Powers didn't form Colonies in Africa to Christianize Africans, they went there for the natural resources.

Another of the many different reasons for the "Civil War" was that the North was settled primarily by the Puritans while the south was primarily settled by England's Royalist Cavaliers. Essentially, the seeds of differing lifestyles, Religions etc England's Civil War were transplanted in the American colonies.

As I'm sure you know, Lincoln despised Black people & his initial post-War plan was not to welcome then to his Northern neighborhoods but to, literally, ship them back to Africa.


Finally, I voted "No" because I see how the Confederate Flag is used by Civil War re-enactors as an exacting & harmless hobby that is both educational for school kids, beneficial to modern day Military career Officers in the study of tactics & to supplement Movie productions.

Because I'm a blacksmith, I've learned a lot by making reproduction Civil War Medical artifacts, cannon parts, cooking equipment, weaponry & countless odd tools used while digging trenches, building the Ironclads & ill-fated submarine.

I have yet to see hatred in any of these re enactors / historians. I suspect that the same is true to individuals interested in their family history.

I don't display a Confederate flag even though one of my non slave owning ancestors fought for the South. I wouldn't display one, publicly, simply because it may be misinterpreted & hurtful to some of my neighbors.

I doubt if I've changed your mind but hope to have shown you a different side of the issue



Thanks
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All you have done really is shown you really don't know why the North or Lincoln went to war....

The South's main reason was to preserve the institution of slavery. They were afraid the newly elected Republican president would outlaw it. In the North the main reason was to preserve the union, period. The North was not fighting to free slaves.

Of course there were other reasons as it is much more complicated but that is the just of it.

I hope I have shown you the error in your position.
 
Considering the hundred years of rights denied to blacks after the Civil War, Lincoln was right when he said this:

"Your race are suffering, in my judgment, the greatest wrong inflicted on any people.

But even when you cease to be slaves, you are yet far removed from being placed on an equality with the white race.

You are cut off from many of the advantages which the other race enjoy.

The aspiration of men is to enjoy equality with the best, when free; but on this broad continent not a single man of your race is made the equal of a single man of ours. Go where you are treated the best, and the ban is still upon you."

Concerning Emancipation: Address on Colonization

Still, and famously: "I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free." - Lincoln
 
Black Dog said:
All you have done really is shown you really don't know why the North or Lincoln went to war....

The South's main reason was to preserve the institution of slavery. They were afraid the newly elected Republican president would outlaw it. In the North the main reason was to preserve the union, period. The North was not fighting to free slaves.

Of course there were other reasons as it is much more complicated but that is the just of it.

I hope I have shown you the error in your position.
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I really don't understand how so many can't grasp that

two sides in a conflict can go to war for different reasons.
 
Paperview said:
I really don't understand how so many can't grasp that

two sides in a conflict can go to war for different reasons.
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I don't know. I just know it happens far to often.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
You are confused about "one of the worst" vs "the worst"? As you were about no/sense vs nonsense?
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A bit of sarcasm...

Then why in the world did anyone have draw from you the biggest, most significant, most essential difference between the Union and the Confederacy?
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Not sure you are getting the point. Do you deny that the USA was founded on the principles of racism, slavery, conquest, oppression and sexism? If not, then you agree with my point that both were guilty of it and that both symbols, the Flags, share the same sordid symbolism.
 
Also, the remark about the Draft Riots in NY --

Does the poster know that over 2 million Union soldiers voluntarily went to war?

Overwhelming voluntary on the North's part. Only 2% were draftees.

But the use of substitutes (6% of the enlisted) by those who could afford it really ticked off quite a few.

That gave rise to a lot of the Draft Riots in NYC. "Rich man's war, - poor man's fight" was heard a lot.

Also, in the South, they enacted a 20 Slave Law. Own 20 slaves? No fight. No probs.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Mark Twain also said the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco. He obviously never went to the Midwest or up north
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Wrong. He could have simply wintered in warmer climates and visited the Midwest and the North during summer.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
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Nonsense... If you employ waterboarding the horse you can make him drink.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
The rights of black Americans to endure a government which upholds the maxim that "All men are created equal."
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You are making a claim that I don't think that black people are equal citizens? I am not sure how a person could come to such a completely stupid conclusion, but please, share your evidence and confirm your intellectual level for all to see. Thanks. :lol:
 
stonewall50 said:
Now would like to stop assigning me views and telling me what I do and don't know about the history of the civil war since it is clear that I actually understand why it was fought and you seem to think it was a moral war against slavery or even more laughable...that it was to provide equal rights to blacks since the north couldn't help themselves from essentially forcing Irish and Italians to live in poverty for the next 50-60 years.
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"His side" has Politically Correct Morality that trumps your education and historical knowledge./.. sorry. You lose.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
2. Yes, but it was also a social decision. Black people's rights are less important than our cheap-labor-inflated profits.
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:lol: That is why the morally conscious Northerners IMMEDIATELY ended racial segregation, called for inter-racial marriage, allowed blacks to fight in the military, scorned the Negro-Leagues, etc.??

Of course they didn't... your argument FAILS.
 
Damn this page moves fast :). Now people are finally getting that's the civil war wasn't such a black and white cause. It was the morally grey issues of the time that caused said war to begin with and Slavery was the thing that political leaders capitalized on to gain sympathy for their causes and the war itself. Just like today with how Bush gained sympathy to invade Iraq; they used a hot button topic like Slavery (WMDS) to gain political sympathy for their goals of invading Iraq or in the case of the civil war the South. After the north went back in to Ft. Sumter ie South Carolina's property at the time since technically Ft. Sumter was theirs and not the Northern states after they seceded from the Union. In a sense, I could understand why the south attacked Ft. Sumter from a defensive and strategic standpoint that would've made great defensive measures for the city and a sea port for the ships.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Except.....we aren't discussing gay rights, it isn't the topic.

The point was you were wrong in stating that the ideas, the concept of equality of races did not exist.
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Caine said:
I am aware of this.... it was an example of how generational shifts occur when viewing what is or is not moral.
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Gimmesometruth, A logical analogy is absolutely a valid debate tactic and dismissing it is very telling... just saying.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
So, then, from this I believe you are stating that Human Rights viewed are no different today then in 1860?
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Gimmesometruth said:
In the context of race equality of Whites and Blacks before the law, there are no significant differences on the major points and concepts. The concepts were widely known, and again, railed against in Secession Declarations. You are trying to make an absolute argument, you are not going to draw me in.
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I am jumping in to this one but are you claiming that Caine's point is invalid because before the law, blacks and whites were treated equally?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

digitusmedius said:
You wouldn't mind giving me a more specific link to that comment, would you?
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Not really interested in going back to research a point I made to another person for you, that you jumped in to, assumed was something else and then concluded that my point was pointless...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
San Francisco can be god damned freezing with that pacific ocean breeze.

I say that living right next to the rocky mountains.
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The climate of the Rockies and San Francisco aren't even remotely comparable. S.F has pretty average yearly temperatures and S.F. winters actually warmer than people realize and that is one reason why the wine regions of the area produce such great vintages.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Not really interested in going back to research a point I made to another person for you, that you jumped in to, assumed was something else and then concluded that my point was pointless...
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Uh-huh. I hope you realize this is as good as an admission that you didn't know what your were talking about....but, of course, you realize that. Otherwise you wouldn't be trying to escape.
 
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