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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Ryriena said:
Nope my views don't validate the report because I don't think the north had the moral authority that schools made, it seem.
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Nobody is saying the north's **** didn't stink.

What we're saying is that the civil war, the south's reasons for succession, and the symbols generated in the rebellion have a dark and tainted history. A history that "yanks" (i don't like the term because i don't like to think that there's a meaningful divide between the north and the south) and southerners share alike.

Of course, the more southerners rattle on about how the idea that the war wasn't fought over slavery, in spite of the fact that it's the ubiquitous justification in every reputable source, makes me feel like i should distance myself from the American south...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ryriena said:
moral high ground whatever you call it
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I wasn't aware that "schools made" a "moral high ground".

Are you ever going to discuss your belief that slavery was not the central issue of secession?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
San Francisco can be god damned freezing with that pacific ocean breeze.

I say that living right next to the rocky mountains.
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Oh, I know SF can be extremely cold.

My comment was based on this statement:

He obviously never went to the Midwest or up north
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Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
Nobody is saying the north's **** didn't stink.

What we're saying is that the civil war, the south's reasons for succession, and the symbols generated in the rebellion have a dark and tainted history. A history that "yanks" (i don't like the term because i don't like to think that there's a meaningful divide between the north and the south) and southerners share alike.

Of course, the more southerners rattle on about how the idea that the war wasn't fought over slavery, in spite of the fact that it's the ubiquitous justification in every reputable source, makes me feel like i should distance myself from the American south...
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Which is but one of the reasons why I definitely have distanced myself from the South. I miss the weather, the land, and the food is wonderful...but it was time to leave and stay away...and if I want some good Southern food, I'll cook it myself (after which my wife will tell me what to add and how to adjust it in order to make it somewhat edible). I do plan on making some homemade gumbo this afternoon...and my mouth is watering....
 
Gimmesometruth said:
And yet, just a few pages ago, you recognized the economic aspects, so it is a bit more than some random "just happened to be" cause to protect.

I have to point out too that the South had a lock on both the Judiciary and Executive Branches from 1790 to 1861.
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And up until the mid 1850's -- the Legislative branch. Helped being able to count property as 3/5's representation.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

i say yes.

The Confederacy is an enemy of the United States and anyone who flies it should be considered a traitor and rendered ext6inct.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

stonewall50 said:
Would you like to share why slavery was important? Why was it an issue the north wanted to go to war over?
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The North did not start the war, that is a revisionist lie.

The South started it entirely.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ancient Herald said:
The North did not start the war, that is a revisionist lie.

The South started it entirely.
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Quote me as saying the north started it. You need to read more carefully. My words were "why did the north want to go to war over it?" You don't get what that means?

It means that rather than let the south keep their slaves...they said NO. The south started war with the union over that. Why did the north not want slavery? I'm not disputing the secession started the war (which is secession because of slavery).

So. Why was stopping slavery a cause the north wanted to go to war over? Hm?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
In the context of race equality of Whites and Blacks before the law, there are no significant differences on the major points and concepts. The concepts were widely known, and again, railed against in Secession Declarations. You are trying to make an absolute argument, you are not going to draw me in.
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Those who believe blacks should be absolutely equal to whites in 1860 were a very, very, small minority. Even Abolitionists were a minority, and that doesn't necessarily include absolute equality, just removal of slavery.



So... I ask again....

Do we hold the same view on what constitutes "Human Rights" than we did in 1860? Yes.... Or No?
 
Absentglare said:
Nobody is arguing that the north's **** didn't stink.

What we're saying is that the south's cause for rebellion was NOT a noble one, it was due to a pissy attitude about northern states, who had abolished slavery, refused to enforce the southern slave laws on their own damned territory.

The flag is a symbol of that rebellion, it has a tainted legacy, and has no place being sincerely raised on government land.
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And rebellion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
In this case, if the issue had been taxes instead of slavery, and slavery wasn't an issue at all..... The Rebellion would probably have been viewed as positive.

But.......

INVALID.jpg
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
Those who believe blacks should be absolutely equal to whites in 1860 were a very, very, small minority. Even Abolitionists were a minority, and that doesn't necessarily include absolute equality, just removal of slavery.



So... I ask again....

Do we hold the same view on what constitutes "Human Rights" than we did in 1860? Yes.... Or No?
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Abolitionists were once a minority, but their numbers grew.

Absolutely we have expanded our views on human rights since the 1860s. That still doesn't give someone an excuse to spend taxpayer money to resurrect and endorse a hate symbol from that period.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

stonewall50 said:
Quote me as saying the north started it. You need to read more carefully. My words were "why did the north want to go to war over it?" You don't get what that means?

It means that rather than let the south keep their slaves...they said NO. The south started war with the union over that. Why did the north not want slavery? I'm not disputing the secession started the war (which is secession because of slavery).

So. Why was stopping slavery a cause the north wanted to go to war over? Hm?
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It wasn't......


Peer Reviewed Documentation

Why fight secession? Evidence of economic motivations from the American Civil War - Springer
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
Abolitionists were once a minority, but their numbers grew.

Absolutely we have expanded our views on human rights since the 1860s. That still doesn't give someone an excuse to spend taxpayer money to resurrect and endorse a hate symbol from that period.
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No, it doesn't give them that right...

A. I wasn't claiming that
B. Go back and check out the dialogue between me and Gimmiesometruth as to why I asked the question.
C. Thanks for reaffirming my stance that we don't have the same views on Human Rights as we did then and shouldn't judge their decisions based upon our current views.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
Abolitionists were once a minority, but their numbers grew.

Absolutely we have expanded our views on human rights since the 1860s. That still doesn't give someone an excuse to spend taxpayer money to resurrect and endorse a hate symbol from that period.
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You mean the American flag then?
 
Caine said:
And rebellion isn't necessarily a bad thing.
In this case, if the issue had been taxes instead of slavery, and slavery wasn't an issue at all..... The Rebellion would probably have been viewed as positive.

But.......

View attachment 67187432
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But it was about slavery so it's not seen as positive.
 
Black Dog said:
But it was about slavery so it's not seen as positive.
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Bingo.

But some people view it as a symbol of rebellion against a strong central government, regardless of the slavery part of the argument.

I believe those people's views are equally important.

Should this symbol be endorsed by state and local governments? No, of course not. I've been saying this since the beginning.

But, So much for liberal tolerance of different ideas when it comes to things like the Confederate Flag.

Thankfully, the majority of America is willing to stand up to that, even if they are the "Silent" majority.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride - CNNPolitics.com
 
Caine said:
Bingo.

But some people view it as a symbol of rebellion against a strong central government, regardless of the slavery part of the argument.

I believe those people's views are equally important.

Should this symbol be endorsed by state and local governments? No, of course not. I've been saying this since the beginning.

But, So much for liberal tolerance of different ideas when it comes to things like the Confederate Flag.

Thankfully, the majority of America is willing to stand up to that, even if they are the "Silent" majority.

Poll: Majority sees Confederate flag as Southern pride - CNNPolitics.com
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Yea I agree. I don't know how we went from "off government property" to "the Army of Virginia battle flag must burn!" Absolutely stupid.

Off government property is as far as it needs to go.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
Those who believe blacks should be absolutely equal to whites in 1860 were a very, very, small minority. Even Abolitionists were a minority, and that doesn't necessarily include absolute equality, just removal of slavery.
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Aside from your use of "absolute" (f'ing weird!!), you just admitted that the concept of equality was widespread, but you keep trying to qualify it by the numbers who adhered to it. The question was not one of adherence, the question was whether or not the concept was widely known of. I have to keep reminding you what the point was since you refuse to remember it while changing the argument to something else.



So... I ask again....

Do we hold the same view on what constitutes "Human Rights" than we did in 1860? Yes.... Or No?
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Bejezus.....I JUST FRIGGING ANSWERED THAT....WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
Aside from your use of "absolute" (f'ing weird!!), you just admitted that the concept of equality was widespread, but you keep trying to qualify it by the numbers who adhered to it. The question was not one of adherence, the question was whether or not the concept was widely known of. I have to keep reminding you what the point was since you refuse to remember it while changing the argument to something else.





Bejezus.....I JUST FRIGGING ANSWERED THAT....WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU?
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What the majority thought and how those ideas were acted upon matters alot more than the select few who had an idea.

You apparently don't understand the EVOLUTION of political thought. You think that if a small number of people believed in something, and the other HEARD OF it, but rejected it, then It is equal to 100 years in the future where the vast majority believe in something and a select few reject it.

Or, as usual, you can't seem to understand logical thought patterns and chronology of events......


BTW: You never did answer the question by stating Yes or No, you deflected and obscured your opinion in excuse and rebuttal.

Im done debating with you, you do this in every single thread.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
No, it doesn't give them that right...

A. I wasn't claiming that
B. Go back and check out the dialogue between me and Gimmiesometruth as to why I asked the question.
C. Thanks for reaffirming my stance that we don't have the same views on Human Rights as we did then and shouldn't judge their decisions based upon our current views.
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Sorry, i misunderstood you. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Black Dog said:
Yea I agree. I don't know how we went from "off government property" to "the Army of Virginia battle flag must burn!" Absolutely stupid.

Off government property is as far as it needs to go.
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I generally agree with this.

I hope that everyone is taught an accurate historical narrative. And i hope that individuals generally elect to be considerate of historical context. But i absolutely believe that none of that should be forced.
 
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