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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

I am aware of this.... it was an example of how generational shifts occur when viewing what is or is not moral.
Again, the point I countered was not of the morality, but your contention that the idea, the concept of race equality was not known, did not exist.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Mark Twain also said the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco. He obviously never went to the Midwest or up north

Another half truth.
 
You better agree or your not "historically accurate". I am saying that slavery wasn't the only issuse that caused the war, but I am wrong and my history isn't correct. They're proving my point for me that a lot of it was centered around the right of the states to govern themselves, but the schools have changed the history to make the vocal point about it being against evil southern slavers.
Im not going to deny that Slavery was an important issue for the Southern cause. However, I still view the issue as one POLITICAL in nature. Slavery just happened to be the cause they were protecting.

The Southern states never had a majority in the legislature, and because of this they could be bullied by the northern states in what was becoming a strong central government, contrary to what the intent of our republic was at first outset.

Slavery, being what they viewed as necessary to protect the success of the southern economy, was at stake because they didn't have the votes in the legislature to prevent the North from passing nearly any bill they wished. Therefore, the economy of the southern states was viewed to be in jeopardy, and held hostage by a northern majority. Similarly, in the mid 1750s, England voted to increase taxes on the colonies, effecting their economy, without adequate representation for them either.....see where I am going with this?

The south seceded because they virtually had no say in the central government, a central government getting stronger and stronger (and yet relatively weak compared to today's) where they had not the ability to stand up for themselves in the legislature, and opted for self governance instead.


It just so happened the catalyst for all this was Slavery....... which, when looking back for some can easily be turned into the arguments we hear today, without taking any of the above into consideration.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Again, the point I countered was not of the morality, but your contention that the idea, the concept of race equality was not known, did not exist.

I didn't say it was not known or didn't exist.... anywhere.

Please quote me where I said this.

A generational understanding of morality doesn't reside in what a small minority of people (thats what Abolitionists were) believe, but in what is the overwhelming consensus on the matter.

And even fewer believed the black man should be equal to the white man.... and nearly NOBODY in government at the time held that belief, to include the Beloved Lincoln.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

What the north is telling you in the history book are the half truths. If you paid attention to the Jefferson Davis quotes tells us he was not wanting the war but the north was blind and wouldn't let us govern ourselves. Trying to find some links with the actual speech he gave that quote in to give you more contexts.


"If the Confederacy fails, there should be written on its tombstone: Died of a Theory." - Jefferson Davis
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I didn't say it was not known or didn't exist.... anywhere.
But I also don't pretend to try to view decisions made THEN using TODAY'S understanding of "Human Rights"..... which they clearly didn't have back then.
We already had this argument, you tried to argue it was a matter of "not spreading".


http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls...g-w-1518-a-post1064831421.html#post1064831421


Why do we have to go over this again?
 
Double Like.

I am so tired of being told what I believe when it comes to the historical debate of the Civil War because I don't instantly agree with this Black vs White; Good Vs Evil viewpoint of the "Moral Crusaders".

Dear lord the bigotry. Seriously? You want to just assign me my views AND my education? Seriously? It is THAT condescension why southerners are not fond of outsiders. Don't forget that.

See. I know why the war was fought. It was a war about money. A culture clash. I'm not under the impression that "my side" was "morally superior." Mainly because "my side" is both(ancestors on both sides). The north had slaves (remember?).

Now would like to stop assigning me views and telling me what I do and don't know about the history of the civil war since it is clear that I actually understand why it was fought and you seem to think it was a moral war against slavery or even more laughable...that it was to provide equal rights to blacks since the north couldn't help themselves from essentially forcing Irish and Italians to live in poverty for the next 50-60 years.

Anyway: why do I say that? Because these things rarely end with one thing. It is too easy of a scapegoat for media whores and politicians. The next time a souther white man shoots a black person it will be something else. Hell...if it is clear cut self defense...it will become murder. Have you not been paying attention to the news? They don't care about facts. They want to report the divisive **** (just like always).

And right now? Racism is a rampant problem in America and all white southern men are flying their confederate flags burning crosses in their black neighbors yard. And they are all getting ropes and guns to kill all the blacks. We are all doomed!

Im not going to deny that Slavery was an important issue for the Southern cause. However, I still view the issue as one POLITICAL in nature. Slavery just happened to be the cause they were protecting.

The Southern states never had a majority in the legislature, and because of this they could be bullied by the northern states in what was becoming a strong central government, contrary to what the intent of our republic was at first outset.

Slavery, being what they viewed as necessary to protect the success of the southern economy, was at stake because they didn't have the votes in the legislature to prevent the North from passing nearly any bill they wished. Therefore, the economy of the southern states was viewed to be in jeopardy, and held hostage by a northern majority. Similarly, in the mid 1750s, England voted to increase taxes on the colonies, effecting their economy, without adequate representation for them either.....see where I am going with this?

The south seceded because they virtually had no say in the central government, a central government getting stronger and stronger (and yet relatively weak compared to today's) where they had not the ability to stand up for themselves in the legislature, and opted for self governance instead.


It just so happened the catalyst for all this was Slavery....... which, when looking back for some can easily be turned into the arguments we hear today, without taking any of the above into consideration.
Agreed on many points actually I do think the catalyst gets the more vocal points a lot more than the fact that the south had no say in their own government. This is exactly why the founders of America went to war with the British.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So, then, from this I believe you are stating that Human Rights viewed are no different today then in 1860?
In the context of race equality of Whites and Blacks before the law, there are no significant differences on the major points and concepts. The concepts were widely known, and again, railed against in Secession Declarations. You are trying to make an absolute argument, you are not going to draw me in.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Uhh, nope. Not pointless. It was a specific counter to a comment made by Athrawan (sp?)

You wouldn't mind giving me a more specific link to that comment, would you?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

He was from Missouri. :lol: I'm sure he knew about cold.

San Francisco can be god damned freezing with that pacific ocean breeze.

I say that living right next to the rocky mountains.
 
Double Like.

I am so tired of being told what I believe when it comes to the historical debate of the Civil War because I don't instantly agree with this Black vs White; Good Vs Evil viewpoint of the "Moral Crusaders".

Nobody is arguing that the north's **** didn't stink.

What we're saying is that the south's cause for rebellion was NOT a noble one, it was due to a pissy attitude about northern states, who had abolished slavery, refused to enforce the southern slave laws on their own damned territory.

The flag is a symbol of that rebellion, it has a tainted legacy, and has no place being sincerely raised on government land.
 
Im not going to deny that Slavery was an important issue for the Southern cause. However, I still view the issue as one POLITICAL in nature. Slavery just happened to be the cause they were protecting.
And yet, just a few pages ago, you recognized the economic aspects, so it is a bit more than some random "just happened to be" cause to protect.

I have to point out too that the South had a lock on both the Judiciary and Executive Branches from 1790 to 1861.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

While, I do agree that slavery was a hot topic during the civil war; I don't think it was the only reason people like Davis or the north went to war. Of course their, where many issuse brought up in debates for the pro secessions crowd in their writings before the war started, so I won't say the only issue at the time was slavery. The north likes to paint us in a bad light when it comes to the civl war since they won the war
If you went to grade school in the south you were likely taught a white washed, half truth version of the Civil War that deliberately tries to ignore and even deny slavery and blacks history as much as possible. Unfortunately, there are millions of blacks in the South today that didn't even know there was a Civil War or anything about their own history.


A study was done in Georgia a few years ago and the results were very telling. Of those who supported keeping the confederate flag as their state emblem...3/4 didn't know anything about the Civil War. The less they knew about the war and slavery, the more they supported the confederate flag....

Southern whites who know basic facts about the Civil War don’t support theÂ*ConfederateÂ*flag - Vox

heritage%20not%20hate.jpg



The thread poll at the top of the page certainly seems to confirm the studies findings.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

If you went to grade school in the south you were likely taught a white washed, half truth version of the Civil War that deliberately tries to ignore and even deny slavery and blacks history as much as possible. Unfortunately, there are millions of blacks in the South today that didn't even know there was a Civil War or anything about their own history.


A study was done in Georgia a few years ago and the results were very telling. Of those who supported keeping the confederate flag as their state emblem...3/4 didn't know anything about the Civil War. The less they knew about the war and slavery, the more they supported keeping the confederate flag....

Southern whites who know basic facts about the Civil War don’t support theÂ*ConfederateÂ*flag - Vox

heritage%20not%20hate.jpg



The thread poll at the top of the page certainly seems to confirm the studies findings.
Lmao, you believe that stupid garbage report? I learned my facts and beliefs on my own accord thanks for the generalization.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

He was from Missouri. :lol: I'm sure he knew about cold.

I'm sure he did. lol Twain was very well traveled....he even visited Utah and met Brigham Young.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Lmao, you believe that stupid garbage report? I learned my facts and beliefs on my own accord thanks for the generalization.

And yet, you unwittingly help to validate that report.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

And yet, you unwittingly help to validate that report.
Nope my views don't validate the report because I don't think the north had the moral authority that schools made, it seem.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Lmao, you believe that stupid garbage report?
You are disputing researchers from Georgia State University?
I learned my facts and beliefs on my own accord thanks for the generalization.
Mmm....that could be the issue then.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Nope my views don't validate the report because I don't think the north had the moral authority that schools made, it seem.

Just more proof the study was right.
 
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