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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

And you picked up the wrong state values to prove your point to smear Jefferson Davis.
How so? Jeff Davis was Mississippi's Senator.

slave labor was not the only issue but please keep telling me, how I got my history wrong. I used the damn senate papers to prove it was not only about slavery. Please continue, I want to hear more about how I am a revisionist. Slavery was never the only issuse of the time but please keep following the same reasoning the North used to force their own views on the South.
You are making a straw argument, I never said slavery was the ONLY issue, I am saying it is the central issue, as did all of the Southern states in their secession statements. Slavery was essential to to the economic system of the South, the monetary value of the slaves was GREATER than all of the land value of the South, they composed 30% of the population, they provided the overwhelming majority of productive labor in the South..
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Protecting, preserving and expanding slavery. Of utmost importance.

Message of Jefferson Davis to the Provisional Congress of the Confederate States of America, from J.D. Richardson, Messages and Papers of Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy, Including Diplomatic Correspondence, 1861-1865

Message of Jefferson Davis

<snip>
"Finally a great party was organized for the purpose of obtaining the administration of the Government, with the avowed object of using its power for the total exclusion of the slave States from all participation in the benefits of the public domain acquired by all the States in common, whether by conquest or purchase; of surrounding them entirely by States in which slavery should be prohibited; of thus rendering the property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless, and thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars. This party, thus organized, succeeded in the month of November last in the election of its candidate for the Presidency of the United States.

In the meantime, under the mild and genial climate of the Southern States and the increasing care and attention for the well-being and comfort of the laboring class, dictated alike by interest and humanity, the African slaves had augmented in number from about 600,000, at the date of the adoption of the constitutional compact, to upward of 4,000,000.

In moral and social condition they had been elevated from brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers, and supplied not only with bodily comforts but with careful religious instruction. Under the supervision of a superior race their labor had been so directed as not only to allow a gradual and marked amelioration of their own condition, but to convert hundreds of thousands of square miles of wilderness into cultivated lands covered with a prosperous people; towns and cities had sprung into existence, and had rapidly increased in wealth and population under the social system of the South;

the white population of the Southern slaveholding States had augmented form about 1,250,000 at the date of the adoption of the Constitution to more than 8,500,000 in 1860; and the productions of the South in cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, for the full development and continuance of which the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable, had swollen to an amount which formed nearly three-fourths of the exports of the whole United States and had become absolutely necessary to the wants of civilized man.

With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled, the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced. With this view the Legislatures of the several States invited the people to select delegates to conventions to be held for the purpose of determining for themselves what measures were best adapted to meet so alarming a crisis in their history."

Two points from that exerpt.

1. He clearly had a bit of respect for the hard work and social development of the African slave.
2. It is obvious from his words the desire to keep slaves was entirely an economic decision.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

How so? Jeff Davis was Mississippi's Senator.

You are making a straw argument, I never said slavery was the ONLY issue, I am saying it is the central issue, as did all of the Southern states in their secession statements. Slavery was essential to to the economic system of the South, the monetary value of the slaves was GREATER than all of the land value of the South, they composed 30% of the population, they provided the overwhelming majority of productive labor in the South..

Actually greater than the value of anything in the county.

The collective wealth tied up in those slaves was over 3 billion dollars.

(That is yes, with a B. Three BILLION. Not in today dollars, adjusted for inflation -- Then dollars. Three BILLION in 1860 dollars.)

In fact, if you wanted to buy all the railroads, factories and banks in the entire country at that time, it would have only cost you about $2.5 billion.

----> slaves were by far the largest concentration of property in the country. A stunning figure, when you think on it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Two points from that exerpt.

1. He clearly had a bit of respect for the hard work and social development of the African slave.
2. It is obvious from his words the desire to keep slaves was entirely an economic decision.
Often referred to as the bottom line.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Often referred to as the bottom line.

The way I view it...... people make plenty of immoral decisions and support immoral actions based on economics today....

This was the 1860s version of it.

This is not to say that I believe Slavery isn't immoral, or that economics is a good reason to continue an immoral act as heinous as slavery.

But I also don't pretend to try to view decisions made THEN using TODAY'S understanding of "Human Rights"..... which they clearly didn't have back then.

I mean, the South wanted to keep slavery for economics, while giving credit where credit was due for what the negro had done to help the South turn wilderness into lands full of profit.... The North created the American Colonization Society, whose goal it was to ship all Africans back to either Africa or Central America.... and who worked closely with Abraham Lincoln during his Presidency to do just this.
This is when Liberia was created.
This is also where we shipped many Africans to a small island in the Caribbean to create a colony there, and that project failed, so we picked them back up and before they even stepped foot back on Union soil they were drafted into the Union Army.

Both sides were racist with a warped view on Human Rights. As the years went by, however, a clear agenda was created of how we were going to teach this history, and thats why most people don't know anything about the Colonization efforts, racist remarks by prominent members of both the CSA and the USA, or even how Lincoln supported his own idea of "Separate but Equal". For some reason, and maybe someone can explain it, modern Secondary school education likes to bury these stories in favor of

Evil Evil Racist South Slavers Vs Good, Right, Moral, and Godly Lincoln.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Two points from that exerpt.

1. He clearly had a bit of respect for the hard work and social development of the African slave.
2. It is obvious from his words the desire to keep slaves was entirely an economic decision.

The way I view it...... people make plenty of immoral decisions and support immoral actions based on economics today....

This was the 1860s version of it.

This is not to say that I believe Slavery isn't immoral, or that economics is a good reason to continue an immoral act as heinous as slavery.

But I also don't pretend to try to view decisions made THEN using TODAY'S understanding of "Human Rights"..... which they clearly didn't have back then.

I mean, the South wanted to keep slavery for economics, while giving credit where credit was due for what the negro had done to help the South turn wilderness into lands full of profit.... The North created the American Colonization Society, whose goal it was to ship all Africans back to either Africa or Central America.... and who worked closely with Abraham Lincoln during his Presidency to do just this.
This is when Liberia was created.
This is also where we shipped many Africans to a small island in the Caribbean to create a colony there, and that project failed, so we picked them back up and before they even stepped foot back on Union soil they were drafted into the Union Army.

Both sides were racist with a warped view on Human Rights. As the years went by, however, a clear agenda was created of how we were going to teach this history, and thats why most people don't know anything about the Colonization efforts, racist remarks by prominent members of both the CSA and the USA, or even how Lincoln supported his own idea of "Separate but Equal". For some reason, and maybe someone can explain it, modern Secondary school education likes to bury these stories in favor of

Evil Evil Racist South Slavers Vs Good, Right, Moral, and Godly Lincoln.

This double this but apparently; I am not being political correct.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

But I also don't pretend to try to view decisions made THEN using TODAY'S understanding of "Human Rights"..... which they clearly didn't have back then..
This is simply denying that the ideology was not in existence in 1861, a completely false notion. The abolitionists are proof the idea was well established, it was their actions that pushed the nation towards a decision, the South made theirs based on economics justified by racism.

edit:

Further, not only was the idea discussed in various Southern writings, it was denounced in many of the Declarations of Secession, ergo, even the Confederates were aware of the concept.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

This is simply denying that the ideology was not in existence in 1861, a completely false notion. The abolitionists are proof the idea was well established, it was their actions that pushed the nation towards a decision, the South made theirs based on economics justified by racism.

And like today, it takes time for new ideas on what is moral to spread.... and it usually takes the dying out of older generations set in their ways.
What example can I give of today? Most youths don't care about Gay Marriage. Our older generations are the ones who are quite strongly opposing it.
As more decades pass, there will be a greater support for it..... by the time I am old and ready to pass, Homosexual equality will be a discussion brought up only in a historical context.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No, your issue remains of not being HISTORICALLY correct.

I am not someone who agrees with you that's; why my history is wrong. My opinion are historically accurate based off the writing of several leaders of times.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

How is the omission relevant to the meaning that almost everyone, by definition, is a bigot?

What rights have I been trampling on, or this another instance in you addressing me but meaning in general instead.

The rights of black Americans to endure a government which upholds the maxim that "All men are created equal."

What the north is telling you in the history book are the half truths. If you paid attention to the Jefferson Davis quotes tells us he was not wanting the war but the north was blind and wouldn't let us govern ourselves. Trying to find some links with the actual speech he gave that quote in to give you more contexts.

No, you're wrong. The south was pissed off that the northern states wouldn't enforce slave laws on behalf of the south.

Mark Twain also said the coldest winter he ever spent was a summer in San Francisco. He obviously never went to the Midwest or up north

You obviously haven't spent much time in san francisco. You should try to find something better if you wish to discredit one of the greatest American figures of all time.

While, I do agree that slavery was a hot topic during the civil war; I don't think it was the only reason people like Davis or the north went to war. Of course their, where many issuse brought up in debates for the pro secessions crowd in their writings before the war started, so I won't say the only issue at the time was slavery. The north likes to paint us in a bad light when it comes to the civl war since they won the war

It was. You're free to believe whatever you wish.

If slavery had never existed, or if the south had abolished slavery on their own prior to the civil war, we would have never had a civil war. Plain as day.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

And like today, it takes time for new ideas on what is moral to spread.... and it usually takes the dying out of older generations set in their ways.
The ideas, the concepts of equality were well known, had spread throughout the South.....but they were rejected for the reasons already discussed.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Two points from that exerpt.

1. He clearly had a bit of respect for the hard work and social development of the African slave.
2. It is obvious from his words the desire to keep slaves was entirely an economic decision.

1. You probably would to if their hard, free labor made you immensely wealthy.

2. Yes, but it was also a social decision. Black people's rights are less important than our cheap-labor-inflated profits.
 
Why do you say that? This is the slippery slope fallacy?

Your conclusion does not follow. No longer flying the flag on public property does not encroach, in any meaningful way, independent personal expression. It does not jeopardize civil rights memorials beyond simply bringing attention to them.

We (people who weren't lied to about the real cause of the civil war being slavery) had no any idea that you (southerners) had re-written this version of history that glorifies your side of the civil war. That whole set of memorials that seek to misrepresent history are certainly in danger. But not because of the flag, because of their inaccuracy.

So, the real question is, why do you have such a vested interest in maintaining these lies, in light of the fact that they're lies?

Dear lord the bigotry. Seriously? You want to just assign me my views AND my education? Seriously? It is THAT condescension why southerners are not fond of outsiders. Don't forget that.

See. I know why the war was fought. It was a war about money. A culture clash. I'm not under the impression that "my side" was "morally superior." Mainly because "my side" is both(ancestors on both sides). The north had slaves (remember?).

Now would like to stop assigning me views and telling me what I do and don't know about the history of the civil war since it is clear that I actually understand why it was fought and you seem to think it was a moral war against slavery or even more laughable...that it was to provide equal rights to blacks since the north couldn't help themselves from essentially forcing Irish and Italians to live in poverty for the next 50-60 years.

Anyway: why do I say that? Because these things rarely end with one thing. It is too easy of a scapegoat for media whores and politicians. The next time a souther white man shoots a black person it will be something else. Hell...if it is clear cut self defense...it will become murder. Have you not been paying attention to the news? They don't care about facts. They want to report the divisive **** (just like always).

And right now? Racism is a rampant problem in America and all white southern men are flying their confederate flags burning crosses in their black neighbors yard. And they are all getting ropes and guns to kill all the blacks. We are all doomed!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

And like today, it takes time for new ideas on what is moral to spread.... and it usually takes the dying out of older generations set in their ways.
What example can I give of today? Most youths don't care about Gay Marriage. Our older generations are the ones who are quite strongly opposing it.
As more decades pass, there will be a greater support for it..... by the time I am old and ready to pass, Homosexual equality will be a discussion brought up only in a historical context.

Yeah that's the zeitgeist for ya.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

1. You probably would to if their hard, free labor made you immensely wealthy.

2. Yes, but it was also a social decision. Black people's rights are less important than our cheap-labor-inflated profits.

2) same can be said for the Irish. Hell...they make great mercenaries so you don't have to send any local boys for the cause.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I am not someone who agrees with you that's; why my history is wrong. My opinion are historically accurate based off the writing of several leaders of times.
False, as I showed your opinion on what was the central dividing issue as VIEWED BY THE SOUTHERN STATES AT THE TIME OF THEIR SECESSION WAS WRONG. THE CENTRAL, BASE ISSUE CAUSING SECESSION WAS SLAVERY.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The ideas, the concepts of equality were well known, had spread throughout the South.....but they were rejected for the reasons already discussed.

And, again, I can say the same for that of homosexual equality in current day America.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

1. You probably would to if their hard, free labor made you immensely wealthy.

2. Yes, but it was also a social decision. Black people's rights are less important than our cheap-labor-inflated profits.

Of course they were...

Black people's rights weren't important to the North or the South.
 
Dear lord the bigotry. Seriously? You want to just assign me my views AND my education? Seriously? It is THAT condescension why southerners are not fond of outsiders. Don't forget that.

See. I know why the war was fought. It was a war about money. A culture clash. I'm not under the impression that "my side" was "morally superior." Mainly because "my side" is both(ancestors on both sides). The north had slaves (remember?).

Now would like to stop assigning me views and telling me what I do and don't know about the history of the civil war since it is clear that I actually understand why it was fought and you seem to think it was a moral war against slavery or even more laughable...that it was to provide equal rights to blacks since the north couldn't help themselves from essentially forcing Irish and Italians to live in poverty for the next 50-60 years.

Anyway: why do I say that? Because these things rarely end with one thing. It is too easy of a scapegoat for media whores and politicians. The next time a souther white man shoots a black person it will be something else. Hell...if it is clear cut self defense...it will become murder. Have you not been paying attention to the news? They don't care about facts. They want to report the divisive **** (just like always).

And right now? Racism is a rampant problem in America and all white southern men are flying their confederate flags burning crosses in their black neighbors yard. And they are all getting ropes and guns to kill all the blacks. We are all doomed!

Double Like.

I am so tired of being told what I believe when it comes to the historical debate of the Civil War because I don't instantly agree with this Black vs White; Good Vs Evil viewpoint of the "Moral Crusaders".
 
Re: Confederate Flag

And, again, I can say the same for that of homosexual equality in current day America.

Except.....we aren't discussing gay rights, it isn't the topic.

The point was you were wrong in stating that the ideas, the concept of equality of races did not exist.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

False, as I showed your opinion on what was the central dividing issue as VIEWED BY THE SOUTHERN STATES AT THE TIME OF THEIR SECESSION WAS WRONG. THE CENTRAL, BASE ISSUE CAUSING SECESSION WAS SLAVERY.

Do you know why slavery was so important?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Except.....we aren't discussing gay rights, it isn't the topic.

I am aware of this.... it was an example of how generational shifts occur when viewing what is or is not moral.
 
And like today, it takes time for new ideas on what is moral to spread.... and it usually takes the dying out of older generations set in their ways.
What example can I give of today? Most youths don't care about Gay Marriage. Our older generations are the ones who are quite strongly opposing it.
As more decades pass, there will be a greater support for it..... by the time I am old and ready to pass, Homosexual equality will be a discussion brought up only in a historical context.[/QUOTE

Dear lord the bigotry. Seriously? You want to just assign me my views AND my education? Seriously? It is THAT condescension why southerners are not fond of outsiders. Don't forget that.

See. I know why the war was fought. It was a war about money. A culture clash. I'm not under the impression that "my side" was "morally superior." Mainly because "my side" is both(ancestors on both sides). The north had slaves (remember?).

Now would like to stop assigning me views and telling me what I do and don't know about the history of the civil war since it is clear that I actually understand why it was fought and you seem to think it was a moral war against slavery or even more laughable...that it was to provide equal rights to blacks since the north couldn't help themselves from essentially forcing Irish and Italians to live in poverty for the next 50-60 years.

Anyway: why do I say that? Because these things rarely end with one thing. It is too easy of a scapegoat for media whores and politicians. The next time a souther white man shoots a black person it will be something else. Hell...if it is clear cut self defense...it will become murder. Have you not been paying attention to the news? They don't care about facts. They want to report the divisive **** (just like always).

And right now? Racism is a rampant problem in America and all white southern men are flying their confederate flags burning crosses in their black neighbors yard. And they are all getting ropes and guns to kill all the blacks. We are all doomed!
You better agree or your not "historically accurate". I am saying that slavery wasn't the only issuse that caused the war, but I am wrong and my history isn't correct. They're proving my point for me that a lot of it was centered around the right of the states to govern themselves, but the schools have changed the history to make the vocal point about it being against evil southern slavers.

I hate being told; I have no leg to stand on because I don't believe in this whole black and white thing and that I don't think the North had any higher moral grounds in the war.
 
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