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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Bodhisattva said:
It is an agenda... that is how democracy works. How is talking about it "whining"? Oh, because it does not agree with what you deem appropriate?



Is using the word retarded being an asshole? How about mentally-challenged?
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Bodhisattva said:
Incorrect.

The part I posted applies because "especially" does not mean "only"...

I left it out so as to not confuse those that might be easily confused...

But you went out of your way to confuse yourself, but at least I tried..
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What in the name of all that is holy are you to fighting about??? I can't make heads nor tails of it? :confused:
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
I think you are agreeing with me as this is what I have been saying but you start off with "no" so I am not sure...
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The no is to what you said, followed by how it really is.
 
Black Dog said:
What in the name of all that is holy are you to fighting about??? I can't make heads nor tails of it? :confused:
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One was about political correctness being real and the other was about trying to "catch me" on being accurate about a definition.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Boo Radley said:
The no is to what you said, followed by how it really is.
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Well, what you said agreed with what I am saying, as far as I could tell.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Incorrect.

The part I posted applies because "especially" does not mean "only"...

I left it out so as to not confuse those that might be easily confused...

But you went out of your way to confuse yourself, but at least I tried..
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Uhh....I think the word "especially" is there to clarify what the word 'bigot' means, precisely because it says "especially".
 
Tralfamadore said:
Uhh....I think the word "especially" is there to clarify what the word 'bigot' means, precisely because it says "especially".
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Uhh... then why do the examples they give look like this:

Examples of BIGOT
He was labeled a bigot after making some offensive comments.

<an incorrigible bigot who hasn't entertained a new thought in years>

Without a specific group?

Here:

especially
: more than usually

Especially | Definition of especially by Merriam-Webster

More than usually does not mean "only". Can't be any more simple than that. *shrugs*
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Well, what you said agreed with what I am saying, as far as I could tell.
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You specifically said they weren't comparable. I said and showed why they were.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It is an agenda... that is how democracy works. How is talking about it "whining"? Oh, because it does not agree with what you deem appropriate?



Is using the word retarded being an asshole? How about mentally-challenged?
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Because you keep complaining about political correctness but the only way that it applies here is with respect to flying a flag over state property. It's not a big deal to lose it. Get over it. Your rights are not being trampled on. The rights you've been trampling on are finally being enforced.

There's nothing wrong with the word 'retarded,' the bigger picture is how you use the word, for example, in a manner that insults the mentally handicapped, may obviously be in poor taste. A comedian who uses it in an act might offend some patrons. A politician who uses it to curse out a passing motorist... might not get re-elected.

Bodhisattva said:
Incorrect.

The part I posted applies because "especially" does not mean "only"...

I left it out so as to not confuse those that might be easily confused...

But you went out of your way to confuse yourself, but at least I tried..
Click to expand...

What a convenient omission!!
 
They're defending it like one would a religion!
 
Bodhisattva said:
Uhh... then why do the examples they give look like this:

Examples of BIGOT
He was labeled a bigot after making some offensive comments.

<an incorrigible bigot who hasn't entertained a new thought in years>

Without a specific group?
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ, it's simply using the term "bigot" in a sentence.
 
Absentglare said:
Because you keep complaining about political correctness but the only way that it applies here is with respect to flying a flag over state property. It's not a big deal to lose it. Get over it. Your rights are not being trampled on. The rights you've been trampling on are finally being enforced.

There's nothing wrong with the word 'retarded,' the bigger picture is how you use the word, for example, in a manner that insults the mentally handicapped, may obviously be in poor taste. A comedian who uses it in an act might offend some patrons. A politician who uses it to curse out a passing motorist... might not get re-elected.



What a convenient omission!!
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How is the omission relevant to the meaning that almost everyone, by definition, is a bigot?

What rights have I been trampling on, or this another instance in you addressing me but meaning in general instead.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Saying it slowly confuses me... and your misuse of quotes makes it unclear what you are trying to impart.
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You are confused about "one of the worst" vs "the worst"? As you were about no/sense vs nonsense?



The United States was founded on an idea that all men are created equal but clearly did not practice that idea, as we can see even today with Same Sex Marriage just becoming legitimate. Forget about slavery, women denied the right to vote until 1919, Separate But Equal, Native Americans being slaughtered and forced onto Reservations, etc. The US changed, yes, but we don't know if that would have happened in the South or not given time, although it well might not have.
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See, you did get the point!



Yeah, I am an American. Grew up surfing in Huntington Beach, CA. Graduated from a California University in History too...
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Then why in the world did anyone have draw from you the biggest, most significant, most essential difference between the Union and the Confederacy?
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

What the north is telling you in the history book are the half truths. If you paid attention to the Jefferson Davis quotes tells us he was not wanting the war but the north was blind and wouldn't let us govern ourselves. Trying to find some links with the actual speech he gave that quote in to give you more contexts.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ryriena said:
What the north is telling you in the history book are the half truths. If you paid attention to the Jefferson Davis quotes tells us he was not wanting the war but the north was blind and wouldn't let us govern ourselves. Trying to find some links with the actual speech he gave that quote in to give you more contexts.
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Thank you for being sane! Unfortunately sanity does not often work with this crowd
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Black Dog said:
Certainly not by you, pappy and that biased nonsense link you posted. Like I said anecdotal evidence in the realm of debate means exactly 0. Not even based on any kind of a fact... just your wrong opinion.



Right to keep men and women in bodage and gain profit by the fruits of their labor without fair recompense? The right to enact laws that made it illegal for people of different races to marry? To be against giving minorities any kind of civil rights?

And that is just a short list. You might want to look into the mirror and ask yourself why you like lying about southern history.
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You more than adequately prove my point
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Thank you for being sane! Unfortunately sanity does not often work with this crowd
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While, I do agree that slavery was a hot topic during the civil war; I don't think it was the only reason people like Davis or the north went to war. Of course their, where many issuse brought up in debates for the pro secessions crowd in their writings before the war started, so I won't say the only issue at the time was slavery. The north likes to paint us in a bad light when it comes to the civl war since they won the war
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ryriena said:
What the north is telling you in the history book are the half truths. If you paid attention to the Jefferson Davis quotes tells us he was not wanting the war but the north was blind and wouldn't let us govern ourselves. Trying to find some links with the actual speech he gave that quote in to give you more contexts.
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Protecting, preserving and expanding slavery. Of utmost importance.

Message of Jefferson Davis to the Provisional Congress of the Confederate States of America, from J.D. Richardson, Messages and Papers of Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy, Including Diplomatic Correspondence, 1861-1865

Message of Jefferson Davis

<snip>
"Finally a great party was organized for the purpose of obtaining the administration of the Government, with the avowed object of using its power for the total exclusion of the slave States from all participation in the benefits of the public domain acquired by all the States in common, whether by conquest or purchase; of surrounding them entirely by States in which slavery should be prohibited; of thus rendering the property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless, and thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars. This party, thus organized, succeeded in the month of November last in the election of its candidate for the Presidency of the United States.

In the meantime, under the mild and genial climate of the Southern States and the increasing care and attention for the well-being and comfort of the laboring class, dictated alike by interest and humanity, the African slaves had augmented in number from about 600,000, at the date of the adoption of the constitutional compact, to upward of 4,000,000.

In moral and social condition they had been elevated from brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers, and supplied not only with bodily comforts but with careful religious instruction. Under the supervision of a superior race their labor had been so directed as not only to allow a gradual and marked amelioration of their own condition, but to convert hundreds of thousands of square miles of wilderness into cultivated lands covered with a prosperous people; towns and cities had sprung into existence, and had rapidly increased in wealth and population under the social system of the South;

the white population of the Southern slaveholding States had augmented form about 1,250,000 at the date of the adoption of the Constitution to more than 8,500,000 in 1860; and the productions of the South in cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, for the full development and continuance of which the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable, had swollen to an amount which formed nearly three-fourths of the exports of the whole United States and had become absolutely necessary to the wants of civilized man.

With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled, the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced. With this view the Legislatures of the several States invited the people to select delegates to conventions to be held for the purpose of determining for themselves what measures were best adapted to meet so alarming a crisis in their history."
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
Protecting, preserving and expanding slavery. Of utmost importance.

Message of Jefferson Davis to the Provisional Congress of the Confederate States of America, from J.D. Richardson, Messages and Papers of Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy, Including Diplomatic Correspondence, 1861-1865

Message of Jefferson Davis

<snip>
"Finally a great party was organized for the purpose of obtaining the administration of the Government, with the avowed object of using its power for the total exclusion of the slave States from all participation in the benefits of the public domain acquired by all the States in common, whether by conquest or purchase; of surrounding them entirely by States in which slavery should be prohibited; of thus rendering the property in slaves so insecure as to be comparatively worthless, and thereby annihilating in effect property worth thousands of millions of dollars. This party, thus organized, succeeded in the month of November last in the election of its candidate for the Presidency of the United States.

In the meantime, under the mild and genial climate of the Southern States and the increasing care and attention for the well-being and comfort of the laboring class, dictated alike by interest and humanity, the African slaves had augmented in number from about 600,000, at the date of the adoption of the constitutional compact, to upward of 4,000,000.

In moral and social condition they had been elevated from brutal savages into docile, intelligent, and civilized agricultural laborers, and supplied not only with bodily comforts but with careful religious instruction. Under the supervision of a superior race their labor had been so directed as not only to allow a gradual and marked amelioration of their own condition, but to convert hundreds of thousands of square miles of wilderness into cultivated lands covered with a prosperous people; towns and cities had sprung into existence, and had rapidly increased in wealth and population under the social system of the South;

the white population of the Southern slaveholding States had augmented form about 1,250,000 at the date of the adoption of the Constitution to more than 8,500,000 in 1860; and the productions of the South in cotton, rice, sugar, and tobacco, for the full development and continuance of which the labor of African slaves was and is indispensable, had swollen to an amount which formed nearly three-fourths of the exports of the whole United States and had become absolutely necessary to the wants of civilized man.

With interests of such overwhelming magnitude imperiled, the people of the Southern States were driven by the conduct of the North to the adoption of some course of action to avert the danger with which they were openly menaced. With this view the Legislatures of the several States invited the people to select delegates to conventions to be held for the purpose of determining for themselves what measures were best adapted to meet so alarming a crisis in their history."
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And your point is?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ryriena said:
http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/DavisSpeech1861.pdf


Read the speech fully and the part where he mentions states rights repeatedly.
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What Davis mentions is his states' actions:

I therefore say I concur in the action of the
people of Mississippi, believing it to be necessary
and proper~ and should have been bound
by their action if my belief had been otherwise​

So what are the core beliefs that Mississippi was acting on?

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…​

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States


Edited to add:

Davis confirmed this belief and stated the underlying ideas of how the slave had no standing, that the proposition of the North to end slavery was invalid in your own citation:


It has been a conviction of pressing necessity,
it has been a belief that we are to be deprived
in the Union of the rights which our fathers be:-
queathed to us, which has brought Mississippi
into her present decision. She has heard. proclaimed
the theory that all men are created free
and equal, and this made the basis of an attack
upon her social institutions; and the sacred
Declaration of Independence has been invoked
to maintain the position of the equality of the
races. That Declaration of Independence is to be
construed by the circumstances and purposes
·for which it was made. The communities were
declaring their independence; the people of
those communities were asserting that no man
was bom-to use the language of Mr. Jeffer-
. son-booted and spurred to ride over the rest
of mankind; that men were created equalmeaning
the men of the political community;
that there was no divine right to rule; that no
man inherited the right to govem; that there
were no classes by which power and place descended
to families, but that all stations were
equally within the grasp of each member of the
body-politic. These were the great principles
they announced; these were ~e purposes for
which they made their declaration; these were
the ends to which their enunciation was directed
.. They have no reference to the slave; else,
how happened it that among the items of arraignment
made against George ill was that· he
endeavored to do just what the North has been
endeavoring of late to do--to stir up insurrection among our· slaves? Had the Declaration announced
that the negroes were· free and equal,
how was the prince to be arraigned for stirring
up insurrection among them? And how was this
to be enumerated among the high crimes which
caused the colonies to · sever their connection
with the mother country? When our Constitution was formed, the same idea was renderedmore palpable, for there we find provision
made for that very class of persons as property;
they were not put upon the footing of equality
with white men-not even upon ·that of paupers
and convicts; but, so. far. as representation
was concerned, were discriminated against as a
lower caste, only to be represented in the numerical
proportion of three-fifths.​
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
What Davis mentions is his states' actions:

I therefore say I concur in the action of the
people of Mississippi, believing it to be necessary
and proper~ and should have been bound
by their action if my belief had been otherwise​

So what are the core beliefs that Mississippi was acting on?

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…​

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States
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And you picked up the wrong state values to prove your point to smear Jefferson Davis. slave labor was not the only issue but please keep telling me, how I got my history wrong. I used the damn senate papers to prove it was not only about slavery. Please continue, I want to hear more about how I am a revisionist. Slavery was never the only issuse of the time but please keep following the same reasoning the North used to force their own views on the South.
 
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