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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

SlevinKelevra said:
If the voters of a state want to fly a flag associated with rebellion, treason, and murder of USA citizens, then they (nor their state) should receive any federal funding of any kind.
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Texas flies that flag on state property (just not near the state house and in conjunction with other flags). No doubt the masses of northreners who keep moving here will be so offended they are going back to say, Gary Indiana- right?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

If you mean "banned and abolished" as in not being flown on official state or public grounds, I say yes. However an individual should have the right to fly the flag in/at their private residence or at a protest, etc.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

SlevinKelevra said:
If the voters of a state want to fly a flag associated with rebellion, treason, and murder of USA citizens, then they (nor their state) should receive any federal funding of any kind.
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Should... but they have received federal funding and continue to regardless of your "should". That is what keeps the union of states together. What will break it irrevocably would be each time the WH doesn't like something done at the State level, they with hold funding. That would be a huge step back to medieval time where the Lord of the land would starve out his pesants and or with hold knights to defend his them each time they did something he didn't like. That's about as anti-Progressive of a view as I've ever seen. :doh
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Kreton said:
The American flag represents freedom. It may have been a symbol of America during an unfortunate period in our history but that is not what it represents today. The confederate flag has always representes slavery. That has never changed.
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It was the battle flag of the soldiers... had nothing to do with slavery
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Helix said:
i don't live in SC, so i didn't vote in the poll. what they want to do is up to them.

as for the flag itself, i'll say this : some might say it's remembering their heritage; others would argue that it's a symbol of fighting for states' rights against an oppressive federal government. i'm not arguing that it isn't both of these things to some degree. however, the symbol has been coopted and basically ruined by racist assholes. when i see a Confederate flag on a truck or on the front porch of a house, i know with 95+ percent certainty exactly what it means and why it's there. so does any black American who sees it. these aren't history buffs; they are racists, and the message is that they don't like racial minorities. there's very little chance that this particular symbol will be looked at by most people as anything other than an expression of racism. that's how i see the situation. as for states that want to argue that it means something else, if they want to leave it up, i'm not going to climb the statehouse and pull it down.
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I would give it a 50%.... I had college roomates in a house, 6 dudes... one black, all from the same area and they had the rebel flag everywhere...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

SouthernDemocrat said:
The American Flag represents the United States. The United States is not a perfect country and has in its history done a lot of wrong just like all countries. However, the American doesn't just represent our actions against Native Americans, or denying women the right to vote in the past and so on. It also represents all the good things this country has done.

In contrast, the Confederate Flag represents one thing: A group of Southern states that left the union in an attempt to preserve the institution of slavery. It is a flag the represents slavery, the most evil institution ever conceived of by man. There is no pride or honor in that.
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Hmmm I see a logic flaw in this...

You assume the south cannot do the same thing...as the United States

The South is it's own changing and moving thing and many hold the battle flag as a symbol of it, because that was a time the south was unified in it's oppression against the north. And there is good reason why it's the battle flag and not the "Confederate flag", it was the flag of the common soldiers fighting against the northern armies. The war did not become so black and white,"We WANT SLAVES!!!!" and "WE DONTTTT!!!!"... There was much stigma between the north and the south for awhile.... like all Civil wars in all countries, it was one between two ethnic groups inside the country for supremacy... and the North won.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I assume everyone that is SO offended by this flag is also SO offended by every Stars and Stripes before the Emancipation Proclamation.

I don't like the Confederate Flag, but I have zero problem with it flying as I believe STRONGLY in free speech and freedom of expression...NO MATTER WHAT.

Besides, it's just a flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
It was the battle flag of the soldiers... had nothing to do with slavery
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It was flown by those defending the Confederacy, a political system whose economy was based on slave labor. It was adopted by Dixiecrats and the KKK as a symbol to bring together opponents of equality for Blacks.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

DA60 said:
I assume everyone that is SO offended by this flag is also SO offended by every Stars and Stripes before the Emancipation Proclamation.

I don't like the Confederate Flag, but I have zero problem with it flying as I believe STRONGLY in free speech and freedom of expression...NO MATTER WHAT.

Besides, it's just a flag.
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The US has, after the shedding of much blood, to begin to live up to the promise of the Constitution, Confederate ideology was and always will be an ideology of slave labor. It was a reaction, finally, to the Republican Lincoln's election.

Free speech, like other rights, is not absolute....but then this is not a free speech debate.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
Hmmm I see a logic flaw in this...

You assume the south cannot do the same thing...as the United States

The South is it's own changing and moving thing and many hold the battle flag as a symbol of it, because that was a time the south was unified in it's oppression against the north. And there is good reason why it's the battle flag and not the "Confederate flag", it was the flag of the common soldiers fighting against the northern armies. The war did not become so black and white,"We WANT SLAVES!!!!" and "WE DONTTTT!!!!"... There was much stigma between the north and the south for awhile.... like all Civil wars in all countries, it was one between two ethnic groups inside the country for supremacy... and the North won.
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The Battle Flag of the Confederacy represented the Confederacy from 1861 to 1865. During that time, the Confederacy had seceded from the Union to preserve the institution of slavery. That is all the battle flag of the Confederacy represents. Everything that has happened in the New South since the fall of the confederacy happened under the United States flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
It was flown by those defending the Confederacy, a political system whose economy was based on slave labor. It was adopted by Dixiecrats and the KKK as a symbol to bring together opponents of equality for Blacks.
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You mean Democrats, right? Funny how they represented racism as well... but oh it doesn't help your arguement does it?

Like I said before The Confederacy composed of hundreds of thousands of different people with different reasons. Back then the States were essentially countries, Lee looked at Virginia as his Country... people were defending their countries. Just like I would stand for the freedom of speech of Hitler preaching on the street of New York, they defended the freedom of states rights and north suppression.

Also, that post was addressing some elses argument, and you commented outside of the argument, while at the same time not addressing anything I said... this is not a game...it's a debate
 
Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
You mean Democrats, right? Funny how they represented racism as well... but oh it doesn't help your arguement does it?

Like I said before The Confederacy composed of hundreds of thousands of different people with different reasons. Back then the States were essentially countries, Lee looked at Virginia as his Country... people were defending their countries. Just like I would stand for the freedom of speech of Hitler preaching on the street of New York, they defended the freedom of states rights and north suppression.

Also, that post was addressing some elses argument, and you commented outside of the argument, while at the same time not addressing anything I said... this is not a game...it's a debate
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"NORTH SUPPRESSION"! :lamo
 
Re: Confederate Flag

SouthernDemocrat said:
The Battle Flag of the Confederacy represented the Confederacy from 1861 to 1865. During that time, the Confederacy had seceded from the Union to preserve the institution of slavery. That is all the battle flag of the Confederacy represents. Everything that has happened in the New South since the fall of the confederacy happened under the United States flag.
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Uh... no.

State flags? flags are allowed to denote different things other than the nation as a whole...some of the southern heritage crowd uses the battle flag to denote that purpose... The evolving southern culture is under the US. Flag... but also their own states flag and the flag they choose to represent their specific sect I guess.... just like many sects of anything has their own symbols. All symbols and cultures can evolve and change... Your argument does not hold/
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Gimmesometruth said:
The US has, after the shedding of much blood, to begin to live up to the promise of the Constitution, Confederate ideology was and always will be an ideology of slave labor. It was a reaction, finally, to the Republican Lincoln's election.

Free speech, like other rights, is not absolute....but then this is not a free speech debate.
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Actually, the federal government did the opposite. Had they been living up to the promise of the Constitution the individual states would have been free to decide the issue for themselves or there would have been a constitutional amendment.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
You mean Democrats, right? Funny how they represented racism as well... but oh it doesn't help your arguement does it?
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Most everyone understands that the Southern Democrats were EXTREMELY conservative, hence why the Southern Strategy worked so well from the 1960's forward.

Like I said before The Confederacy composed of hundreds of thousands of different people with different reasons. Back then the States were essentially countries, Lee looked at Virginia as his Country... people were defending their countries. Just like I would stand for the freedom of speech of Hitler preaching on the street of New York, they defended the freedom of states rights and north suppression.
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You can try to paint it anyway you like, the fact still is it represents a defending of a slave system, something Dixiecrats and the KKK understood.

Also, that post was addressing some elses argument, and you commented outside of the argument, while at the same time not addressing anything I said... this is not a game...it's a debate
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???????
 
Re: Confederate Flag

celticwar17 said:
Uh... no.

State flags? flags are allowed to denote different things other than the nation as a whole...some of the southern heritage crowd uses the battle flag to denote that purpose... The evolving southern culture is under the US. Flag... but also their own states flag and the flag they choose to represent their specific sect I guess.... just like many sects of anything has their own symbols. All symbols and cultures can evolve and change... Your argument does not hold/
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So would it be acceptable for German government buildings to fly the Nazi flag because some Germans believed it represented a time of great economic growth and development for Germany?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Interesting that so many think the flag represents slavery. It doesn't. It never has. It's a battle flag. The reason there is a palmetto tree to represent SC is because they were used to build their fort and the soft wood did a good job of repelling cannon balls. But then what do you expect from a generation that will not bother to learn real history. Let's just revise it and shorten it up to a twitter post so we can get on with 45 step math problems. A couple of things to consider:

1) The flag does not in any way represent slavery.

2) The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery. It was a secondary issue Lincoln used to end the war.

3)Early Americans did not capture Africans to use as slaves. They bought them. It was common practice (still is in some areas) for the victors of tribal wars in Africa to sell the defeated as slaves. It prevented them coming back. Most of the survivors, (except for the most desirable women) were sold. By other Africans. Black ones.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.
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So you want us to get rid of the confederate flag and the stars and stripes? What the hell do you want us to use then? :cuckoo:

OK How about his one?

uw6M8na.jpg
 
Re: Confederate Flag

SouthernDemocrat said:
So would it be acceptable for German government buildings to fly the Nazi flag because some Germans believed it represented a time of great economic growth and development for Germany?
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The Nazi symbol was stolen. It used to be a symbol representing good luck in many cultures.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Bodhisattva said:
Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?
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"Removed" and "abolished" are two very different things.

The Confederate Flag should not be displayed by any state-sponsored entity or monuments. Private individuals can do whatever they want. Thus it should not be "abolished," in the sense that the state should not censor it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

tech30528 said:
The Nazi symbol was stolen. It used to be a symbol representing good luck in many cultures.
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Yes, that is one difference. While the Nazi symbol does have an older meaning in Buddhist and Hindu cultures and thus does not only represent an evil cause, the Confederate Flag only represents an evil cause. An attempt to preserve the evil institution of slavery is all the Confederate Flag represents.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

SouthernDemocrat said:
So would it be acceptable for German government buildings to fly the Nazi flag because some Germans believed it represented a time of great economic growth and development for Germany?
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I'm okay with them doing that if they want. But Germany isn't near that free of a country. What's your problem with it?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

tech30528 said:
Interesting that so many think the flag represents slavery. It doesn't. It never has. It's a battle flag. The reason there is a palmetto tree to represent SC is because they were used to build their fort and the soft wood did a good job of repelling cannon balls. But then what do you expect from a generation that will not bother to learn real history. Let's just revise it and shorten it up to a twitter post so we can get on with 45 step math problems. A couple of things to consider:

1) The flag does not in any way represent slavery.
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Let's see what the creator of the CSA flag had to say about it:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the Whiteman over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause...Such a flag would take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations and be hailed by the civilized world as the 'Whiteman's Flag.'"

That Battle flag was incorporated into the confederacy's second official flag :

"On May 1, 1863, the Confederate Congress adopted a second official flag that consisted of a battle flag in the upper left-hand corner on a field of white. Designed by William T. Thompson, editor of the Savannah Morning News, the flag was designated "Whiteman's Flag."

Article - Southern Changes Digital Archive

You don't even need that. Just read the Confederate Constitutions or their Declarations of Independence.

2) The Civil War was NOT fought over slavery.
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What the South was fighting for was the perpetuation and expansion of human bondage and White Supremacy. That's what the CSA was Founded on.

Just stop it.

Stop it now.
 
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