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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
Are you stating that when Bush said

"He has used them, not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq. The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again."

he was lying?
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Whatsa point of this cherry picking?

Are you stating that when Bush said

"You can't distinguish between al-Qaeda and Saddam.” 09/26/2002 George W. Bush

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties.” GWB 09/17/2003

"Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training........ .............. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." Source: President's Radio Address, White House (2/8/2003).

he was telling the truth?

This just goes to show that I can cherry-pick just as much as you can, it gets neither your nor me anywhere.

The point is that anyone even slightly acquainted with the political setup of the region, knew the impossibility of something founded on fundamentalist and extremist Islam as much as AQ, linking up with an egomaniacal and atheist dictator like Saddam.

AQ hated him and the feeling was mutual.

The point is not so much the claim that intelligence was bad, but that it insinuates by default that the German and French intelligence services outdid the combined might of ALL US services repeatedly. And shared none of their findings to any of them, ludicrously implausible as records confirm.

Those are the perils that arise with giving in to confirmation bias, one develops almost incurable deafness to anything that might contradict it. And nobody is immune, least of all by political affiliation.

That's why turning it into the usual surrogate theater of Dem vs Rep has been boring me to death ever since.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Chagos said:
Whatsa point of this cherry picking?

Are you stating that when Bush said

"You can't distinguish between al-Qaeda and Saddam.” 09/26/2002 George W. Bush

"There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties.” GWB 09/17/2003

"Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training........ .............. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." Source: President's Radio Address, White House (2/8/2003).

he was telling the truth?

This just goes to show that I can cherry-pick just as much as you can, it gets neither your nor me anywhere.

The point is that anyone even slightly acquainted with the political setup of the region, knew the impossibility of something founded on fundamentalist and extremist Islam as much as AQ, linking up with an egomaniacal and atheist dictator like Saddam.

AQ hated him and the feeling was mutual.

The point is not so much the claim that intelligence was bad, but that it insinuates by default that the German and French intelligence services outdid the combined might of ALL US services repeatedly. And shared none of their findings to any of them, ludicrously implausible as records confirm.

Those are the perils that arise with giving in to confirmation bias, one develops almost incurable deafness to anything that might contradict it. And nobody is immune, least of all by political affiliation.

That's why turning it into the usual surrogate theater of Dem vs Rep has been boring me to death ever since.
Click to expand...
Wait...so its 'Cherry picking' is it? WHy wont you answer the question? Was that a lie or wasnt it?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

1436469472501.cached.jpg
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
Wait...so its 'Cherry picking' is it? WHy wont you answer the question? Was that a lie or wasnt it?
Click to expand...
You're not much good at logic either, are you? Is "cherry picking" the only issue you could intellectually determine?

In what you cited in your post, Bush was NOT lying. In what I cited in mine he WAS. So what does that make him and his crowd, Liars or truth speakers? I'll give you a hint: neither and both.

I'll leave it to you to research how and why, even were I'm not holding my breath much on the research bit. You obviously don't appreciate trouble taken to explain things to you or you'd have addressed the far more substantial part of my post.

So I won't make that effort again.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Chagos said:
You're not much good at logic either, are you? Is "cherry picking" the only issue you could intellectually determine?

In what you cited in your post, Bush was NOT lying. In what I cited in mine he WAS. So what does that make him and his crowd, Liars or truth speakers? I'll give you a hint: neither and both.

I'll leave it to you to research how and why, even were I'm not holding my breath much on the research bit. You obviously don't appreciate trouble taken to explain things to you or you'd have addressed the far more substantial part of my post.

So I won't make that effort again.
Click to expand...
So Bush was NOT lying when he stated that all evidence proves Saddam had WMDs and that he demonstrated the will and willingness to use them. And was Clinton lying when he stated without question...WITHOUT QUESTION when he left office Saddam still had WMD stockpiles that were unaccounted for and that he was a direct threat to not only the world but to the US and US interests?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
So Bush was NOT lying when he stated that all evidence proves Saddam had WMDs and that he demonstrated the will and willingness to use them. And was Clinton lying when he stated without question...WITHOUT QUESTION when he left office Saddam still had WMD stockpiles that were unaccounted for and that he was a direct threat to not only the world but to the US and US interests?
Click to expand...

I guess Bush and Clinton both lied about the truth if you ask some people.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Removable Mind said:
Ello, Mate...from Byron Bay, Australia.

Bod, you're right. The American Flag flew for a long time when slavery was not only legal, but was the reason so many people like Washington and Jefferson were able to grow their wealth as they did. Washington was worth $500 Million (in today's money) and Jefferson somewhere about $200 Million. Jefferson not only used slaves for labor, but bred and sold slaves.

Until the Civil Right Act 1964 - blacks were still almost slaves. They were free - but with very limited means.
Click to expand...

Well, black men may have had limited freedom, but they had the vote long before women. Even white women. And they could actually vote until the later on in the south.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
I guess Bush and Clinton both lied about the truth if you ask some people.
Click to expand...
All of those people know they are full of **** and hypocrisy when it comes to their opposition to Bush. Clinton and the Clinton admin had the SAME intel. All those democrat politicians that claim Bush lied were sitting in the same intel briefings during the Clinton era that they did during the Bush era. We KNOW he had WMDs. We know he had unaccounted for stockpiles. We know he lied about them and he defied the UN 17 times. We KNOW Saddam had contact with terrorists and that he supported global terrorism.

I laugh when people say "gosh...I dont know why Bush's VP and others arent in prison." Bull****. OF COURSE they know why. If Cheney and others were in prison, then they would have to be sharing an entire cell block with 16 years worth of elected democrats. Its only in their fairy tale fantasy land that they can separate the two and ONLY make it be about Bush.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
So Bush was NOT lying when he stated that all evidence proves Saddam had WMDs and that he demonstrated the will and willingness to use them. And was Clinton lying when he stated without question...WITHOUT QUESTION when he left office Saddam still had WMD stockpiles that were unaccounted for and that he was a direct threat to not only the world but to the US and US interests?
Click to expand...
When you have acquired the capacity for developing an original thought, come back by all means.

Until then I won't bother with rantings.

Bye
 
Re: Confederate Flag

JumpinJack said:
Well, black men may have had limited freedom, but they had the vote long before women. Even white women. And they could actually vote until the later on in the south.
Click to expand...

And black women?

A lot of black men were prevented from voting. Poll taxes, literacy tests, severe intimidation at polling locations, etc. Consequently the 15th Amend didn't help - especially in the south.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Chagos said:
When you have acquired the capacity for developing an original thought, come back by all means.

Until then I won't bother with rantings.

Bye
Click to expand...
"original thought" coming from the guy regurgitating all the tired bull**** about Bush and Iraq.

You funny!

:lamo
 
Confederate Flag[W:1518]

VanceMack said:
All of those people know they are full of **** and hypocrisy when it comes to their opposition to Bush. Clinton and the Clinton admin had the SAME intel. All those democrat politicians that claim Bush lied were sitting in the same intel briefings during the Clinton era that they did during the Bush era. We KNOW he had WMDs. We know he had unaccounted for stockpiles. We know he lied about them and he defied the UN 17 times. We KNOW Saddam had contact with terrorists and that he supported global terrorism.

I laugh when people say "gosh...I dont know why Bush's VP and others arent in prison." Bull****. OF COURSE they know why. If Cheney and others were in prison, then they would have to be sharing an entire cell block with 16 years worth of elected democrats. Its only in their fairy tale fantasy land that they can separate the two and ONLY make it be about Bush.
Click to expand...

Please read this:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/...s-media-still-cant-get-iraqi-wmd-story-right/

It explains what actually happened. Yes, Saddam technically had WMDs. No, they are not the ones we were told were there- we never found any of those WMDs. No, there weren't ties to Al Qaeda. The whole world knew we were full of it.

Part of the speculation is that Saudis wanted us to unseat Saddam. Saudi oil money, iirc, went to both Clinton and Bush. Again, this is speculation, so you can't act like i'm not putting a disclaimer on this information, but the desired takeaway is that this isn't some stupid partisan crap, it's some stupid political crap.

You can say Clinton lied as well, and that certainly may be true. But Clinton didn't start a $TN war that cost more than 4,400 American lives and countless Iraqi civilians. That legacy lays firmly on the Bush administration. Who should be in prison. Seriously.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
Are you stating that when Bush said

"He has used them, not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq. The international community had little doubt then, and I have no doubt today, that left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again."

he was lying?
Click to expand...

This wasn't a lie. This is not the lie we're talking about.

I remember 2003. I remember what Cheney said: "There is no doubt," [that Iraq is actively developing WMDs to use against the USA and its allies]. We never found them. We just had Bush standing there in front of a "Mission Accomplished" banner, spinning a new story that we came out there to spread democracy.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Removable Mind said:
And black women?

A lot of black men were prevented from voting. Poll taxes, literacy tests, severe intimidation at polling locations, etc. Consequently the 15th Amend didn't help - especially in the south.
Click to expand...

It's a given that black women had the least freedom of all. I mentioned white women to point out that they weren't exactly flying high.

The black men voting problems came later. In the south.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
All of those people know they are full of **** and hypocrisy when it comes to their opposition to Bush. Clinton and the Clinton admin had the SAME intel. All those democrat politicians that claim Bush lied were sitting in the same intel briefings during the Clinton era that they did during the Bush era. We KNOW he had WMDs. We know he had unaccounted for stockpiles. We know he lied about them and he defied the UN 17 times. We KNOW Saddam had contact with terrorists and that he supported global terrorism.

I laugh when people say "gosh...I dont know why Bush's VP and others arent in prison." Bull****. OF COURSE they know why. If Cheney and others were in prison, then they would have to be sharing an entire cell block with 16 years worth of elected democrats. Its only in their fairy tale fantasy land that they can separate the two and ONLY make it be about Bush.
Click to expand...

Yes, Vance. We all know. Iraq HAD WMDs at one time, years before. Everyone knew that. The Kurds were gassed. But fast forward years, and intel indicated that Iraq didn't have any. They'd used what they had. And inspectors spent months looking for them and couldn't find any evidence there were any there, confirming the intel. One of the key inspectors spoke publicly and stated there weren't any there. (He was then fired, I think.)

Thing is....Cheney and Bush, from the outset of taking office, were going to go into Iraq, and this was their opportunity. They wanted to "finish" what the elder Bush had started, as well as get the oil and kill Saddam Hussein. This is all in books. Read Terrorism Czar Richard Clarke's book about it.

So we had a war, and we're still there, sending the country into an historic deficit, since the war was not only not paid for, but tax cuts to the wealthy were given simultaneously, further reducing the country's revenue. And why? Hussein....oil....Halliburton (Hall. was given any and all work it wanted in the country, via no-bid contracts; wheelbarrows of cash were rolled around and taken; people walked around doing nothing & collecting high salaries for working in a danger zone). Remember that Cheney had been CEO of Halliburton and still got a lot of money from it. Can you say "conflict of interest"?

So, yes....there was a lot of intel that Iraq did NOT have WMDs. The operative word being "have." Not "had."
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Can I ask why we are talking about Bush, Iraq, and WMDs......again?

I know its the tried and true debate on this forum, and everything turns into it......... but really? Start (yet) another thread on it and go debate that **** there.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
Can I ask why we are talking about Bush, Iraq, and WMDs......again?

I know its the tried and true debate on this forum, and everything turns into it......... but really? Start (yet) another thread on it and go debate that **** there.
Click to expand...

Because selectively ignoring history is all it takes to completely skew your worldview into a position of complete inaccuracy.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
Because selectively ignoring history is all it takes to completely skew your worldview into a position of complete inaccuracy.
Click to expand...

Oh... please..... be more cryptic......I beg of you....

I have no clue what you are talking about.... If you have something to say, just say it. Don't be scared.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Caine said:
Oh... please..... be more cryptic......I beg of you....

I have no clue what you are talking about.... If you have something to say, just say it. Don't be scared.
Click to expand...

This thread was discussing the confederate flag.

It seems there are two, major, distinct ideas about the legacy of the confederate flag. One is slavery, the other is state's rights (iirc).

It would also seem there are two, major, distinct ideas about the legacy of the iraq
war. Again, it depends on what your reference of history is. Some of us regret the war, some of us affirm it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Absentglare said:
Frankly, i don't understand why they aren't in federal prison. If not for lying to the entire planet, for condoning the torture of human beings.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty weak defense of him even if it's true. It was the same with Reagan and Iran-Contra. If he didn't know about it, it bespeaks massive incompetence so it's hardly an absolution. I agree with the the fact that Bush's lieutenants were the driving force behind the massive failure of Iraq but to argue that he was just a puppet makes his role almost worse in my view. Yes, it was obvious he was never adequate for the job to begin with but that does relieve him of the responsibility that he took on. And I totally agree with your closing comment.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
I ain't a republican either! I go either way depending on who I think will do the best job.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Right. Did you think we wouldn't notice that in the past few days you've replaced your tiger with the symbol of slavery, murder and genocide that the south fought for?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
Awful? See...thats your problem. Oh...you trip over yourself wanting to trumpet the faults in others...but you are oblivious to the faults represented by the US flag. Thats...pathetic.
Click to expand...
You're the one who said there's no difference between what the US flag and the flag of slavery stand for, not I.

And as you usually do...you have your **** completely twisted. The people pretending to 'care' are people like you that have fallen out of the sky since people began trumpeting the cause (where was this on your radar 6 weeks ago?). But you were silent before 6 weeks ago. You wouldnt have been able to spell Confederate, let alone identify it in a lineup. Meanwhile...as you and others go on with your mock outrage about the Confederate flag in the south, you still continue to avoid the actual problems plaguing the black community nationwide. You are as transparent as the "Black lives matter" clowns.
Click to expand...

Now you're just flailing and throwing your own poo. There's an internet term for people (like you) who pretend to care about the plight of, in this case, violence in the parts black community by attacking the character and behavior of the entire black community--it's called "concern troll." By trying to deflect the topic of a horrendous race murder to the very different problem of black-on-black crime (which all people like you do is sit back and enjoy rather than actually care about) they reveal the ugly streak of racism every time. It seems to be so ingrained that the carrier of it can't avoid expressing it and will turn around and deny it despite the evidence right there for all the world to see.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

VanceMack said:
When you mare done pissing yourself over the flag you might want to consider engaging in the blood and brutality and conflict and loss that impacts the black community across the country. You know...**** that actually matters.
Click to expand...

Nothing that you'd like more than for us to ignored those murders in Charleston, right? You think I haven't run up against your kind a thousand times, friend?
 
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