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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%

  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%
  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
You mean yankee slaveholders. Don't forget slavery was rampant up north also. The Confederate leaders are in heaven. Who knows where the yanks wound up. We know sherman is in the innermost circle of hell.
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The northern economy was not dependent on slavary though.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
:lol: The South did not have to place their right to secede in the Constitution for it to be a right. They made it more than clear that when they acceded to the union they had the right to secede from the union. Had they not made that right clear, they would likely have formed their own country sooner.
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I'm tired of posting this, and HorseGirl will not read it, because she scrolls over anything that does not fit into her bubble,

but...

for those who might be interested:
The direct question, when posed, was answered when NY was considering it's ratification of the Constitution. At that time it was proposed:

"there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

A vote was taken, and it was negatived.

Elliot’s Debates: Volume 2 | Teaching American History

Historian Amar goes on to explain the pivotal moment of agreement:

"But exactly how were these states united? Did a state that said yes in the 1780's retain the right to unilaterally say no later on, and thereby secede? If not, why not?

Once again, it was in New York that the answer emerged most emphatically. At the outset of the Poughkeepsie convention, anti-Federalists held a strong majority. The tide turned when word arrived that New Hampshire and Virginia had said yes to the Constitution, at which point anti-Federalists proposed a compromise: they would vote to ratify, but if the new federal government failed to embrace various reforms that they favored, "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

At the risk of alienating swing voters and losing on the ultimate ratification vote, Federalists emphatically opposed the compromise.

In doing so, they made clear to everyone - in New York and in the 12 other states where people were following the New York contest with interest - that the Constitution did not permit unilateral state secession.

Alexander Hamilton read aloud a letter at the Poughkeepsie convention that he had received from James Madison stating that "the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever."

Hamilton and John Jay then added their own words, which the New York press promptly reprinted: "a reservation of a right to withdraw" was "inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification."

Thus, it was New York where the document became an irresistible reality and where its central meaning - one nation, democratic and indivisible - emerged with crystal clarity."

Conventional Wisdom--A Commentary by Prof. Akhil Amar Yale Law School

Yes. "In toto and forever."
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
:lol: The South did not have to place their right to secede in the Constitution for it to be a right. They made it more than clear that when they acceded to the union they had the right to secede from the union. Had they not made that right clear, they would likely have formed their own country sooner.
Click to expand...

Secession - and the war that follows - are only a 'right' if they are successful. That's why our declaration of independence from England was successful - we were able to win the war that followed.

That said, considering the major reason for the secession of the rebel states and the war that followed - the preservation of the institution of slavery - there is zero reason why the Confederate flag belongs anywhere outside of a museum or on private property.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Glen Contrarian said:
Secession - and the war that follows - are only a 'right' if they are successful. That's why our declaration of independence from England was successful - we were able to win the war that followed.

That said, considering the major reason for the secession of the rebel states and the war that followed - the preservation of the institution of slavery - there is zero reason why the Confederate flag belongs anywhere outside of a museum or on private property.
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No there is plenty of reason the Confederate flag should fly in the South. It is our heritage. Sadly some want to do away with our heritage.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
You mean yankee slaveholders. Don't forget slavery was rampant up north also. The Confederate leaders are in heaven. Who knows where the yanks wound up. We know sherman is in the innermost circle of hell.
Click to expand...

How "rampant" was it in the North?

Go head HorseGirl -- tell us.

In 1860 there were ______ slaves in the North.

There were ______slaves in the South.

can you fill in the blanks?

I'd be willing to bet a sig line she won't answer this one.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Unitedwestand13 said:
Except they chose to do so just after an election happened and their canidates had lost.
Click to expand...

The South threatened secession in the previous 1856 election as well if a Republican was elected. Fremont - the first republican - was on the ballot, and they made it clear they were ready to pop off then if he won.

Some in the South said they would not even allow him to take office.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
I'm tired of posting this, and HorseGirl will not read it, because she scrolls over anything that does not fit into her bubble,

but...

for those who might be interested:
The direct question, when posed, was answered when NY was considering it's ratification of the Constitution. At that time it was proposed:

"there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

A vote was taken, and it was negatived.

Elliot’s Debates: Volume 2 | Teaching American History

Historian Amar goes on to explain the pivotal moment of agreement:

"But exactly how were these states united? Did a state that said yes in the 1780's retain the right to unilaterally say no later on, and thereby secede? If not, why not?

Once again, it was in New York that the answer emerged most emphatically. At the outset of the Poughkeepsie convention, anti-Federalists held a strong majority. The tide turned when word arrived that New Hampshire and Virginia had said yes to the Constitution, at which point anti-Federalists proposed a compromise: they would vote to ratify, but if the new federal government failed to embrace various reforms that they favored, "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

At the risk of alienating swing voters and losing on the ultimate ratification vote, Federalists emphatically opposed the compromise.

In doing so, they made clear to everyone - in New York and in the 12 other states where people were following the New York contest with interest - that the Constitution did not permit unilateral state secession.

Alexander Hamilton read aloud a letter at the Poughkeepsie convention that he had received from James Madison stating that "the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever."

Hamilton and John Jay then added their own words, which the New York press promptly reprinted: "a reservation of a right to withdraw" was "inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification."

Thus, it was New York where the document became an irresistible reality and where its central meaning - one nation, democratic and indivisible - emerged with crystal clarity."

Conventional Wisdom--A Commentary by Prof. Akhil Amar Yale Law School

Yes. "In toto and forever."
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It was written from a yankee perspective, why should I believe its "truth" at all
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Figures you reject history that doesn't fit your agenda. How typical.
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I stand by the Constitution 100%. You have shown not one historical fact or document that proves...what ever you're trying to say.

Give me something. give me paper or a quote in which an American figure stated that secession was a lawful act.

Hell give me a rebel leader that showed that the constitution allows secession....anything.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Yet even Grant owned slaves. Granted he freed his slave before the end of the war but wifie refused to free her domestic slaves.
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See? She's been corrected on this like 82 times, but she refuses to even acknowledge the facts and just keeps on Everyready battery bunnying the line.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I would like to see the flag mostly relegated to museums etc. I do not support banning its use by individuals and private organizations, that would violate the first amendment. I would like to see people choose not to use it. I do support eliminating its use as a current symbol by state and local governments through democratic processes. (as in SC)
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
How "rampant" was it in the North?

Go head HorseGirl -- tell us.

In 1860 there were ______ slaves in the North.

There were ______slaves in the South.

can you fill in the blanks?

I'd be willing to bet a sig line she won't answer this one.
Click to expand...

OMG its like talking to a brick wall with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The number does not matter. What matters is that BOTH the north and south DID own slaves. Only about 15% of Southerners owned slaves to begin with! I know you will ignore that FACT because it does not fit your south hating agenda. Slave Census
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Hard Truth said:
I would like to see the flag mostly relegated to museums etc. I do not support banning its use. I do support eliminating its use as a current symbol by governments through democratic processes. (as in SC)
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Democratic process my behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was nothing more than political correctness run amuck
 
Re: Confederate Flag

A famous man once said:

"The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it were intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It is intended for perpetual union, so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government (not a compact) which can only be dissolved by revolution, or by the consent of all the people in convention assembled."



 
Re: Confederate Flag

Paperview said:
A famous man once said:

"The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it were intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It is intended for perpetual union, so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government (not a compact) which can only be dissolved by revolution, or by the consent of all the people in convention assembled."
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AND? Who said that? Wasn't from the South no doubt
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Democratic process my behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was nothing more than political correctness run amuck
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It was a vote by the legislature.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
OMG its like talking to a brick wall with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The number does not matter. What matters is that BOTH the north and south DID own slaves. Only about 15% of Southerners owned slaves to begin with! I know you will ignore that FACT because it does not fit your south hating agenda. Slave Census
Click to expand...

See. Toldja she wouldn't answer.
 
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