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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

Not all of them, no. They were divided greatly on how much power the states should have in comparison to the federal government. But there is also the other aspect of how much power the states should have over their people, in comparison to individual rights. That is the problem we see.

Plus, the Founders also recognized that this nation would change and put in place a mechanism to change the Constitution along with those changes, as we did, which gave much of the states' power originally perceived by the Founders back to where many preferred it, in the hands of the people, enforced by the federal government backed by the Constitution.

Government has too much power, at any level. We might as well face it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Government has too much power, at any level. We might as well face it.

No matter what kind of government you have, this will be true. I'd rather have citizens' rights protected by all of them though, especially when there are lots of people out there more than willing to use majority opinion to oppress others, which is much more likely to happen (from US experience anyway) on the smaller levels than the larger levels.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

No matter what kind of government you have, this will be true. I'd rather have citizens' rights protected by all of them though, especially when there are lots of people out there more than willing to use majority opinion to oppress others, which is much more likely to happen (from US experience anyway) on the smaller levels than the larger levels.

Me too. Question is how in the heck do we do that in the current environment?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Me too. Question is how in the heck do we do that in the current environment?

Letting the SCOTUS do their job, and holding all levels of government accountable for their actions. Actually getting your voice heard, encouraging voting and actually giving your opinion to your representatives. Don't allow the fricking loud-mouthed jerks and fringe members of any party to be the ones that talk the loudest because then you end up with vast divides.

We are never going to get a consensus when it comes to what people consider right. Most of the states' rights people I know are all about discarding the protections guaranteed by the 14th in favor of letting the states have their way, even if that means people in those states are oppressed by the will of the majority, despite the US Constitution. The best we can do is to simply be involved and teach our children to do so. If something really becomes an issue, stand up for yourself and your views, but be willing to take the consequences, and you should make damn well sure you're fighting for what you truly believe is right, not simply following the crowd or getting caught up in some hype.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

The Confederacy was founded to protect slavery from big bad Abraham Lincoln. The US was founded on the general principal of equality that has grown since our founding. The Confederacy tried to divide our country and take us back in the wrong direction.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Letting the SCOTUS do their job, and holding all levels of government accountable for their actions. Actually getting your voice heard, encouraging voting and actually giving your opinion to your representatives. Don't allow the fricking loud-mouthed jerks and fringe members of any party to be the ones that talk the loudest because then you end up with vast divides.

We are never going to get a consensus when it comes to what people consider right. Most of the states' rights people I know are all about discarding the protections guaranteed by the 14th in favor of letting the states have their way, even if that means people in those states are oppressed by the will of the majority, despite the US Constitution. The best we can do is to simply be involved and teach our children to do so. If something really becomes an issue, stand up for yourself and your views, but be willing to take the consequences, and you should make damn well sure you're fighting for what you truly believe is right, not simply following the crowd or getting caught up in some hype.

Well fellow Tarheel (or are you a Wolf?) You're right. Unfortunately the fringes on both sides yell the loudest, and the mainstream is having a hard time getting their voices heard because people listen to the fringe on both sides. We can teach kids how the government works when they are in school, but the GOOD teachers (I had a terrific government teacher in high school) are gonna be the ones to get the kids excited about being able to make their voices heard. With any luck the young people will get involved and maybe turn things around.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Confederacy was founded to protect slavery from big bad Abraham Lincoln. The US was founded on the general principal of equality that has grown since our founding. The Confederacy tried to divide our country and take us back in the wrong direction.

Nope. The South wanted things to be more as the nation was originally founded, where the states had more say. The yanks on the other hand wanted a stronger central government, so the South exercised their right to leave, and when the north realized the economic consequences of that move, it was all she wrote.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Well fellow Tarheel (or are you a Wolf?) You're right. Unfortunately the fringes on both sides yell the loudest, and the mainstream is having a hard time getting their voices heard because people listen to the fringe on both sides. We can teach kids how the government works when they are in school, but the GOOD teachers (I had a terrific government teacher in high school) are gonna be the ones to get the kids excited about being able to make their voices heard. With any luck the young people will get involved and maybe turn things around.

They do yell loud on both sides, over a wide range of issues. I still believe the majority are actually in the middle though, either in that they easily see both sides and look for a compromise or believe in something somewhere in between anyway, and/or they take an extreme view on a very few amount of issues, not based on partisanship, but rather based on their own personal views or feelings, and are pretty balanced out otherwise.

As for the Tarheel/Wolf thing, I don't do sports nor care about either college besting the other or anyone else. I also wasn't raised here in Raleigh, but rather in Kings Mountain and small towns in that area.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Maybe you should come down to Atlanta, and you'll see what I mean. That beautiful Downtown/Midtown skyline--and that one I will give you--belies the fact that, as I tried to gently point out in my previous post, wealth inequality is a serious problem there, just as it is across most if not all of America. Atlanta has incredible mansions, for example, in the Buckhead region, which exist only a few miles from the west side of town, where you can find a lot of poverty. You want wealth, you want poverty, we've got both. Furthermore, the recent "vibrancy" of Atlanta, as you call it, is a two-headed coin: Yes they have a lot of building projects, the Beltline, gentrification, etc., but that gentrification is coming at the expense of displacing those who cannot afford basic housing. So what happens? Some of that poverty gets pushed into the suburbs. South Cobb, southwest Gwinnett, etc. are seeing large swaths of poverty, where even 30 years ago there was not nearly as much. Simply put, playing whack-a-mole with poverty does not solve it. Nor does cutting taxes on the rich, otherwise states such as Louisiana and Mississippi would be prosperous.

P.S. Georgia has the second-worst unemployment rate in the nation, only ahead of, surprise surprise, Mississippi. These have been Republican-controlled states ever since the mass exodus of the Dixiecrats to the Democratic party. And oh, yeah, Michigan is Republican-controlled, too, yet it also has bad unemployment. Could it be that cutting taxes on the richest people is not the silver bullet that we have been told for decades?

My wife and I spent a couple of anniversaries in Atlanta in recent years, mainly to attend operas at the Cobb Energy Center. We both enjoyed our time there. We rode public transportation, including buses and the subway, and spent time downtown in Centennial Park, CNN Center, the aquarium, etc. Frankly, we were impressed by how clean it was, with a significant amount of mixed-use development. On the other hand, I'll never forget the moonscape we witnessed as we flew into Detroit's airport a few years ago. I mean, yeah, there were skyscrapers, but there were also many empty fields and dilapidated buildings. The place just looked depressing, like something from a dystopian novel.

Anyway, my point isn't that Atlanta is some sort of Shrangri La or Oz, but I stand by the juxtaposed photo of the city as a metaphor for an ascendant South. I could just as easily have substituted Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Huntsville, Chattanooga, Nashville, or Raleigh-Durham.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

They do yell loud on both sides, over a wide range of issues. I still believe the majority are actually in the middle though, either in that they easily see both sides and look for a compromise or believe in something somewhere in between anyway, and/or they take an extreme view on a very few amount of issues, not based on partisanship, but rather based on their own personal views or feelings, and are pretty balanced out otherwise.

As for the Tarheel/Wolf thing, I don't do sports nor care about either college besting the other or anyone else. I also wasn't raised here in Raleigh, but rather in Kings Mountain and small towns in that area.

Been to Kings Mountain, nice little town. Visited the battlefield several times. I actually grew up in Charlotte, but now live closer to Winston Salem. But we're both Tarheels being in the Tarheel state!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Simply put, playing whack-a-mole with poverty does not solve it. Nor does cutting taxes on the rich, otherwise states such as Louisiana and Mississippi would be prosperous.

There's aren't too many millionaires to soak in Mississippi. On the other hand, we have plenty of households headed by single parents with kids born out of wedlock, especially up in the Delta area south of Memphis. More than fifty years of Great Society and War on Poverty spending don't seem to have made much of a dent in the problem. All we've done is create a culture of dependency. Call it Uncle Sam's Plantation.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I see you only picked a minority to attempt to prove your "point"

You can make all the excuses that you like, but slavery is ALWAYS WRONG. The fact that you are defending slavery by pretending that slave owners took good care of their property, speaks volumes. IMO The USA should have stopped slavery outright from the beginning and kicked any ones asses that thought it should continue. But thats not how history happened, so eventually the problem was corrected through a civil war.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You can make all the excuses that you like, but slavery is ALWAYS WRONG. The fact that you are defending slavery by pretending that slave owners took good care of their property, speaks volumes. IMO The USA should have stopped slavery outright from the beginning and kicked any ones asses that thought it should continue. But thats not how history happened, so eventually the problem was corrected through a civil war.

"The US" with very few exceptions engaged in slavery from the beginning. Northern states only relinquished slavery when it was no longer economically viable and they damn sure didnt want freed slaves in the north. No one is defending slavery...but dont be so foolish as to pretend the world was pure except for the south. All that 'should have' bull**** comes from historical hindsight. Had you been in the middle of it odds are your opinions would be rather different.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Nope. The South wanted things to be more as the nation was originally founded, where the states had more say. The yanks on the other hand wanted a stronger central government, so the South exercised their right to leave, and when the north realized the economic consequences of that move, it was all she wrote.

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

Georgia
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

Mississippi
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

South Carolina
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Texas
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

Virginia just vaguely mentioned "opression against the slve-holding states."

So, why, if slavery wasn't the cause, is that the ONLY specific cause mentioned by the Confederate states?
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

Georgia
The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

Mississippi
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

South Carolina
We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Texas
Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

Virginia just vaguely mentioned "opression against the slve-holding states."

So, why, if slavery wasn't the cause, is that the ONLY specific cause mentioned by the Confederate states?

She's been shown that literally hundreds of times -- I firmly believe she refuses to even read the States' Declarations.

She still, to this day, and years and years of asking her to admit it, will not even accept the words slavery or slave is even in the Confederate Constitution.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Deep down it must make Hillary sad to see her pet Confederate flag taking so many hits.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

My wife and I spent a couple of anniversaries in Atlanta in recent years, mainly to attend operas at the Cobb Energy Center. We both enjoyed our time there. We rode public transportation, including buses and the subway, and spent time downtown in Centennial Park, CNN Center, the aquarium, etc. Frankly, we were impressed by how clean it was, with a significant amount of mixed-use development. On the other hand, I'll never forget the moonscape we witnessed as we flew into Detroit's airport a few years ago. I mean, yeah, there were skyscrapers, but there were also many empty fields and dilapidated buildings. The place just looked depressing, like something from a dystopian novel.

Anyway, my point isn't that Atlanta is some sort of Shrangri La or Oz, but I stand by the juxtaposed photo of the city as a metaphor for an ascendant South. I could just as easily have substituted Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Huntsville, Chattanooga, Nashville, or Raleigh-Durham.

As true as all of that may be about downtown Atlanta, the fact is, that spiffy appearance doesn't tell the whole story about the city and the region. I'm not sure why you're not at least giving my fact-based arguments about Vine City, Bankhead, SW Atlanta, etc. deference. Likewise, what you saw in Detroit belies a lot. Remember, Detroit's economy got shellacked when all the carmaking jobs got shipped away. You would think that, in the wake of this collapse, we would have treated the heart and soul of an existentially American industry better, although you and I most likely have differing views over what that would mean and what we should have done with Detroit. But this notion, this silly notion, that it was "high taxes and liberalism" that hurt Detroit is just capitalist tripe, pure and simple.

On a lighter note, I'm glad you enjoyed your time in Atlanta. :) I think that people are surprised just how much there is to do there. And once we get light rail built on the eastside Beltline, that's gonna unlock even more portions of the city that you can see without ever having to get in a car. :)

There's aren't too many millionaires to soak in Mississippi. On the other hand, we have plenty of households headed by single parents with kids born out of wedlock, especially up in the Delta area south of Memphis. More than fifty years of Great Society and War on Poverty spending don't seem to have made much of a dent in the problem. All we've done is create a culture of dependency. Call it Uncle Sam's Plantation.

Then why do librul Massachusetts and Minnesota have some of the highest standards of living and life expectancies in America? In particular, you need to read that first source and note what it has to say about Mississippi and Louisiana. And I think you completely missed my note when I clearly pointed out that Mississippi (and Louisiana) have been Republican-controlled states for many years now. But the even bigger issue is that the South has a culture of ignorance which, except for some of its larger metro areas, greatly impedes its progress. It is not an exaggeration by any stretch to say that much of Mississippi literally is worse off than many Third-World nations.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Probably time to note the bottom line on the poll that started this thread. Looks like a landslide win for the pro-Confederate Flag voters.

My guess is that not a single one of those voters is in favor of slavery; They just respect preservation of American history and like so many other Americans, are sick of the revisionists and sick of the endless Liberal hate and whining over all things American.

Also important to keep in mind that America was a very minor participant in the worldwide solve trade with only 5% of the twelve million slaves that were brought to the new world coming to the United States. Only 5%.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

My guess is that not a single one of those voters is in favor of slavery; They just respect preservation of American history and like so many other Americans, are sick of the revisionists and sick of the endless Liberal hate and whining over all things American.

Not quite. I voted against abolishing it because I don't believe in restricting offensive speech. I don't think it should be flown or displayed, but neither do I think that the government should prevent it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Probably time to note the bottom line on the poll that started this thread. Looks like a landslide win for the pro-Confederate Flag voters.
Lot's / most people do not want the flag "abolished. " The poll was poorly worded. That's why I didn't vote.

Most of us have no problem with the flag being worn or flown by individuals.

A lot of those same people do not want to see it waving at capitals, and otherwise endorsed by the state.



Also important to keep in mind that America was a very minor participant in the worldwide solve trade with only 5% of the twelve million slaves that were brought to the new world coming to the United States. Only 5%.

Your numbers are off -- it was more than 20%, and the time period you refer included the early 1500's, well before the folks landed in Jamestown (with slaves)

Second, after 1808, the international slave trade was abolished. Then we just bred our millions of slaves here.

Third: We were one of the only countries in the world to have to have fought a bloody war killing hundreds of thousands of our citizens to abolish it. Such a pity, and a horrible indictment on us.
 
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