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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

My "people" were Irish (and German) catholics so I learned pretty earlier how it went for the first ones to come over. IOW, people your granddaddy would likely have spit on.

Don't know about the spit on part, but I do know that when President Kennedy was murdered the Carib Theater in Miami Beach was the only place in town that was open.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Blacks and whites are all sorts of friendly to each other in the South... just not always. Her grandaddy's interactions with that man may very well have been sincere.

From where I was sitting they seemed to be. I was especially flattered that he remembered me after a few years of not visiting Richmond regularly because my granddaddy moved in with us after my grandma passed.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I speak about possibilities and you and HG can debate yourselves. I just found your comment that witness testimony was referred to as "folklore" funny, but not in a productive way. That's all.

I didn't refer to eyewitness testimony as foklore. Now you must be the confused one. I'd say eyewitness testimony is what we know it is: all in the eyes of the beholder. It's well known that it's one of the least reliable sources of evidence in criminal trials. There are several hundred now free men in this country (see "Innocence Project") who were convicted of violent crimes on eyewitness testimony who later were cleared by DNA evidence showing that someone else had to have committed that crime.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Well yeah, that is when it was invented but that knowledge and technology had to be transferred around the world, learned, implemented and used. The tribes of New Guinea still use rock tools to harvest their koru (sp?) tree diet and they have no writing at all. 100% illiterate. This is today.

That's interesting. I guess to them it really doesn't matter.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I didn't refer to eyewitness testimony as foklore. Now you must be the confused one. I'd say eyewitness testimony is what we know it is: all in the eyes of the beholder. It's well known that it's one of the least reliable sources of evidence in criminal trials. There are several hundred now free men in this country (see "Innocence Project") who were convicted of violent crimes on eyewitness testimony who later were cleared by DNA evidence showing that someone else had to have committed that crime.

Oh. My bad. I jumped to conclusions. :lol: Sorry... I do that but it is also part of my charm. Being a moron.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I didn't refer to eyewitness testimony as foklore. Now you must be the confused one. I'd say eyewitness testimony is what we know it is: all in the eyes of the beholder. It's well known that it's one of the least reliable sources of evidence in criminal trials. There are several hundred now free men in this country (see "Innocence Project") who were convicted of violent crimes on eyewitness testimony who later were cleared by DNA evidence showing that someone else had to have committed that crime.

That has happened all over the country. That's why those who want people executed quicker need to simmer down. I guess they don't care that they might be killing an innocent person
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

It may be inappropriate to fly over a statehouse, but abolished? do we have a first amendment or not?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The USA Flag is about 50/50.

Won: Am. Revolution, WWI, WWII, Persian Gul War
Lost: Vietnam, Korea and the War of 1812

Spanish American War was next to nothing and I left out Iraq and Afghanistan because there is no winner or loser other than the people living there.

Well, it's being flown (proudly I assume since so many are fighting it) by a state govt that was part of a failed (potential) nation defeated by the USA. So it's different in that it is a symbol of defeat and rebellion against the country that it now receives (happily probably) lots of subsidies and other financial benefits. What is the point of flying that symbol of defiance? They lost...are they still in denial of that? Or think that they were justified? IMO, while they fought for many things, there is no justification for fighting to keep people as property so again...inappropriate. And that state has many citizens that are descended from that 'property.' Do their feelings count?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Folk lore? Hmmmm are you saying those veterans lied to my granddaddy and his Benedictine company? Somehow I doubt it.
If some of the things you've been saying about the civil war came from those veterans ..then it is highly likely they did, yes.


".....The Lost Cause is an interpretation of the American Civil War (1861–1865) that seeks to present the war, from the perspective of Confederates, in the best possible terms.

Developed by white Southerners, many of them former Confederate generals, in a postwar climate of economic, racial, and gender uncertainty, the Lost Cause created and romanticized the "Old South" and the Confederate war effort, often distorting history in the process. For this reason, many historians have labeled the Lost Cause a myth or a legend.

It is certainly an important example of public memory, one in which nostalgia for the Confederate past is accompanied by a collective forgetting of the horrors of slavery. Providing a sense of relief to white Southerners who feared being dishonored by defeat, the Lost Cause was largely accepted in the years following the war by white Americans who found it to be a useful tool in reconciling North and South.

The Lost Cause has lost much of its academic support but continues to be an important part of how the Civil War is commemorated in the South and remembered in American popular culture..

Lost Cause, The
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It may be inappropriate to fly over a statehouse, but abolished? do we have a first amendment or not?

Did we have a war or not?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Folk lore? Hmmmm are you saying those veterans lied to my granddaddy and his Benedictine company? Somehow I doubt it.

No I am saying that your grandpa has no relevance in this thread. Hell I dont even believe your story about your grandpa.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I've asked her a couple of times now if she feels whites (i.e., people of northern and central European descent) are superior to all others and she's aggressively avoided responding to that question, which is an answer really, isn't it?
It's probably best not to assume and bullying her into a response is probably not a good idea, either. Rebels don't like to be told what to do, doncha know? Ya gotta let em save face or they will never see your point.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So.... how is the U.S. Flag Above U.S. Burial Grounds helping the U.S. Move on?

Why! By promoting unity rather than secession, of course!

I can do this all day.

Fact is... nobody has any business removing a Confederate Flag from a Confederate memorial or burial site.

State Capitol? Sure, But as I recall they did that years ago.

Now its time for the people themselves to remove it in order to strengthen unity.

The point of a flag being over a war burial ground or memorial ground isn't to help people move on.

That is why the confederate flag should go.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

England and France, from the way the stories go, were planning to intervene and help the South. Of course that is not something they're gonna talk about now. However it did not happen that way. I often wonder if it had would the South had won after all? Makes you wonder

I believe their divide and conquer strategy would have paved a way for a divided and weaker USA, unlike the one we have now. So on this point, glad they failed to use the vacuum to their advantage and earn themselves a Southern US puppet. The reason I am glad most is that the further secessions of USA would not stop there, but it might continue until various parts of former USA would be weak and completely dependent on England and France.

I believe then you would just be exchanging the idea of being ruled from your own to that of being ruled from people abroad.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It's probably best not to assume and bullying her into a response is probably not a good idea, either. Rebels don't like to be told what to do, doncha know? Ya gotta let em save face or they will never see your point.

I think I met one from the South that was in the army. He was on a brink of exploding from all the orders and the army like control he had to experience. The most it bothered him is that he had to report every hour where he was and what was he up to.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I guess you don't understand that hindsight is 20/20.

It always has been. But what does that have to do with your apparent denial of the reasons for secession as explained by the states themselves in their own statements of secession where SLAVERY played such a prominent motivation?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Irish who moved here after they were starved out of Ireland and came to the NYC area were treated like ****. I'm descended through my mother from those people. They were banned from stores, jobs, schools, even parks and city streets. I did a lot of research with my sister and my cousin and we were pretty shocked by what we learned about our great grandparents and back. For some odd reason it isn't chic to talk about how mistreated the Irish were in the north.

Nope. Not at all. They made up a large part of forced soldiers. Hell...the scene in gangs of New York was completely inaccurate with them getting off the boat and being given a gun.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Start with reading The South was Right. A lot of things I have actually found out that have been left out of the history books you'll have to go to heaven to find out, since my granddaddy, who taught me more than I could ever learn in any book, has been gone from this earth for 9 1/2 years now. He got his information from the veterans who lived in the Old Soldier's Home in Richmond VA, while a student at Benedictine College (now Benedictine College Prepatory) in Richmond in the 1920's.

lol. I remember you from the *H* debate board a few years back.

We had many an interaction....and your posts were so thoroughly demolished, but it looks like you haven't gained much since.

One of my favorites of yours was how the Confederate Constitution never once mentioned slavery. lol

That was golden!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

It shouldn't be abolished or anything. But it's a loser flag.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Nope. Not at all. They made up a large part of forced soldiers. Hell...the scene in gangs of New York was completely inaccurate with them getting off the boat and being given a gun.

Conscripted soldiers made up a relatively tiny proportion of the Union military. It was primarily utilized as a mechanism for encouraging enlistment, something it was much more successful at.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Conscripted soldiers made up a relatively tiny proportion of the Union military. It was primarily utilized as a mechanism for encouraging enlistment, something it was much more successful at.

True. Many are surprised to learn of the 2,100,000 Union soldiers, about 2% were draftees.

6% were substitutes paid by draftees - and that was part of what made some so upset and ignited those riots. That you could pay someone to fight if you were well off, leading to the oft used phrase then: Rich mans war, poor man's battle.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh. My bad. I jumped to conclusions. :lol: Sorry... I do that but it is also part of my charm. Being a moron.

I may not agree with you on much but you, sir?/ma'am?, are no moron.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Conscripted soldiers made up a relatively tiny proportion of the Union military. It was primarily utilized as a mechanism for encouraging enlistment, something it was much more successful at.

More common was the practice of military able northerners paying for their more pecunious fellow citizens to do their service for them. I don't think the South had nearly as much trouble getting men of all ages to step forward to fight. Their cause, preserving slavery, was much dearer to their hearts than the northern cause, preserving the Union, was to many northerners. Still, the population in the North was large enough to account for the possible lack of fervor among recruits. And as the South were the aggressors, even attempting to invade the North fairly early in order to kill and pillage, it woke northerners up to the reality that the threat was not just to a principle but to the very fabric of American existence.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

If some of the things you've been saying about the civil war came from those veterans ..then it is highly likely they did, yes.


".....The Lost Cause is an interpretation of the American Civil War (1861–1865) that seeks to present the war, from the perspective of Confederates, in the best possible terms.

Developed by white Southerners, many of them former Confederate generals, in a postwar climate of economic, racial, and gender uncertainty, the Lost Cause created and romanticized the "Old South" and the Confederate war effort, often distorting history in the process. For this reason, many historians have labeled the Lost Cause a myth or a legend.

It is certainly an important example of public memory, one in which nostalgia for the Confederate past is accompanied by a collective forgetting of the horrors of slavery. Providing a sense of relief to white Southerners who feared being dishonored by defeat, the Lost Cause was largely accepted in the years following the war by white Americans who found it to be a useful tool in reconciling North and South.

The Lost Cause has lost much of its academic support but continues to be an important part of how the Civil War is commemorated in the South and remembered in American popular culture..

Lost Cause, The


HorseGirl is a nice enough gal, and on other subjects, quite reasonable. I know - I've had literally thousands of interactions with her over a period of several years.

I can dispell the notion she is a White Supremacist, she's not. She even leans liberal on most things.

She is however, thoroughly tied to her granddaddy's view of the Confederacy in a rather childlike innocence that has remained with her. Nothing, and I do mean - nothing - you can say will dissuade her of the fables she was told as a child, which she believes to be absolute truth.

What she gleans from 99% is what she heard gpapa - in an Confederate Old Age home -- from an over 100 year old rebel in the 1930's heard, and her being told this late in his life i(n the 1990's, as I recall).

In fact, I even looked up the Soldier History of the rebel vet her gpapa told her about, and presented her with the details of him being thrown in a Union prison for most of the war (yeah, that couldn't have had any effect....)

The other 1% comes from the (completely debunked) Kennedy Twins "The South Was Right."

She will not look at any information presented outside of those sources. No matter what/

Trust me on this. Believe me, I've tried. Beyond that, she's a genuinely nice gal.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

More common was the practice of military able northerners paying for their more pecunious fellow citizens to do their service for them.

I just that this has already been covered. Apology for the redundancy.
 
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