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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

The North was not innocent of this. In fact, "No Irish or Dogs need apply." The north was horrifically racist for a VERY long time. Slavery wasn't a danger to their liberty. It was a danger to their pocket books. The only reason the north didn't remain the way it was...was because the green back was more important than the skin color.

I would even argue that the move westward is the proof that slavery was crippling to the pocket book of middle class voters and business owners and farmers. They wouldn't gain money from slavery. They were still racist to Blacks. They just cared more about money.

Racist =/= Slavery. No one has ever argued that the North was a paragon of racial virtue. Nevertheless the Northern states abolished slavery, generally opposed its expansion, and many allowed or began the process of extending the franchise to free blacks.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Racist =/= Slavery. No one has ever argued that the North was a paragon of racial virtue. Nevertheless the Northern states abolished slavery, generally opposed its expansion, and many allowed or began the process of extending the franchise to free blacks.

I wasn't saying racism and slavery are equal. I was more highlighting the whole "white supremacy" aspect. To say it was setup as such is kind of a statement that can be applied to any white dominated society of the time. Even enfranchisement the blacks didn't mean much. I would even go so far as to call it "token." Given how the North treated black troops, and the men who lead them. And that went on for a long time in the military (Black Jack Pershing is a good example of what happened to men who lead black units...his name from west point was even less PC).
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So it is your contention that the South seceded because it was being 'taxed to death' as the result of war debts incurred from the War of 1812? I would love to hear an explanation for that line of reasoning. Further, no slavery was not 'widespread' throughout the North. In the years immediately preceding the Civil War slavery had been abolished in every northern state except for Delaware and Maryland. Finally, the entire Republican Party had its genesis in opposition to Slavery, the expansion of 'Free State' boundaries and the eventual rollback and abolition of slavery. That in the 1850's people were simultaneously anti-slavery and bigoted shouldn't be shocking nor does it have any bearing on the issue.

Slavery only became an issue when the yankees were getting their behinds kicked and Europe was gonna intervene and take the South's side. It was never a major issue before
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Racist =/= Slavery. No one has ever argued that the North was a paragon of racial virtue. Nevertheless the Northern states abolished slavery, generally opposed its expansion, and many allowed or began the process of extending the franchise to free blacks.

Expect Delaware and Maryland.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So it is your contention that the South seceded because it was being 'taxed to death' as the result of war debts incurred from the War of 1812? I would love to hear an explanation for that line of reasoning. Further, no slavery was not 'widespread' throughout the North. In the years immediately preceding the Civil War slavery had been abolished in every northern state except for Delaware and Maryland. Finally, the entire Republican Party had its genesis in opposition to Slavery, the expansion of 'Free State' boundaries and the eventual rollback and abolition of slavery. That in the 1850's people were simultaneously anti-slavery and bigoted shouldn't be shocking nor does it have any bearing on the issue.

Then why did Grant own slaves? Even if he freed his his wife had no intention of doing that. If the north was so anti slavery, then why were escaped slaves captured and returned under the Fugitive Slave Act? Also is it that hard for you to understand that the yankees were the ones who had the votes in Congress? The South was pretty much bullied until they couldn't take it anymore. And contrary to myth, Lincoln had no intention of freeing slaves. None. All he wanted was to keep the South from exercising their right to secede whether slavery existed or not.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Neither the CSA (their primary cause for leaving was slavery, a slowly dying institution economically and morally- even in the American south) nor the USA (pursuing a power poltics dispute "all or nothing" style) were justified.

In the end, however, it was the Union that launched an illegal war of aggression against states either taking a constitutionally permissable course of action, or who in some cases were sympathetic to others doing so and in other cases, might have potentially seceeded.

You sound pretty set in your pro-secessionist beliefs. Myself I am pretty set in my pro-USA beliefs.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

You sound pretty set in your pro-secessionist beliefs. Myself I am pretty set in my pro-USA beliefs.

Yes, that is true.

Ironically, though I was born in Baltimore (arguably a southeren city at the time) I have never considered myself southeren. Rather, I just support of the CSA's position regarding secession as being academically correct.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The North was not innocent of this. In fact, "No Irish or Dogs need apply." The north was horrifically racist for a VERY long time. Slavery wasn't a danger to their liberty. It was a danger to their pocket books. The only reason the north didn't remain the way it was...was because the green back was more important than the skin color.

I would even argue that the move westward is the proof that slavery was crippling to the pocket book of middle class voters and business owners and farmers. They wouldn't gain money from slavery. They were still racist to Blacks. They just cared more about money.

The Irish who moved here after they were starved out of Ireland and came to the NYC area were treated like ****. I'm descended through my mother from those people. They were banned from stores, jobs, schools, even parks and city streets. I did a lot of research with my sister and my cousin and we were pretty shocked by what we learned about our great grandparents and back. For some odd reason it isn't chic to talk about how mistreated the Irish were in the north.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Irish who moved here after they were starved out of Ireland and came to the NYC area were treated like ****. I'm descended through my mother from those people. They were banned from stores, jobs, schools, even parks and city streets. I did a lot of research with my sister and my cousin and we were pretty shocked by what we learned about our great grandparents and back. For some odd reason it isn't chic to talk about how mistreated the Irish were in the north.

For some reason I thought the Irish all hung out in Boston! Anyway when I went to NYC in 2006 we stayed at the Embassy Suites (don't know if its still that or not) and the Irish Hunger Memorial was across the street.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So you think ol' King George was happy with Washington and company when the Brits sailed back in defeat? Somehow I seriously doubt that

I said nothing of the sort. I guess that you believe by putting words in my mouth you will be victorious?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I said nothing of the sort. I guess that you believe by putting words in my mouth you will be victorious?

Then what the heck are you trying to say? You trying to say we were wrong for breaking away from England? Come on now. The South had the right to secede, and had made that perfectly clear when they acceded to the union, they had the right to secede from the union
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yes, that is true.

Ironically, though I was born in Baltimore (arguably a southeren city at the time) I have never considered myself southeren. Rather, I just support of the CSA's position regarding secession as being academically correct.

So the Confederate flag isnt offensive to liberty and freedom to you?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

For some reason I thought the Irish all hung out in Boston! Anyway when I went to NYC in 2006 we stayed at the Embassy Suites (don't know if its still that or not) and the Irish Hunger Memorial was across the street.

Yup Boston had a big Irish population, my family ended up in Jersey City. And they were treated like **** all over the north.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Irish who moved here after they were starved out of Ireland and came to the NYC area were treated like ****. I'm descended through my mother from those people. They were banned from stores, jobs, schools, even parks and city streets. I did a lot of research with my sister and my cousin and we were pretty shocked by what we learned about our great grandparents and back. For some odd reason it isn't chic to talk about how mistreated the Irish were in the north.

Greetings, tres borrachos. :2wave:

All the more reason to point it out, IMO! I've read books that related stories about how badly the Irish were treated. The blacks aren't the only ones that suffered from discrimination, and skin color had nothing to do with it!
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Then what the heck are you trying to say? You trying to say we were wrong for breaking away from England? Come on now. The South had the right to secede, and had made that perfectly clear when they acceded to the union, they had the right to secede from the union

We had a Revolution. Difference.

The South had no right to secede, and History - and SCOTUS has shown that.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

Removed from tax paid public service buildings and grounds yes. Not because it offends a large number of people, but because it is unnecessary for government to function. Besides, the north won the war... Thus we would essentially be flying our enemies flag after our victory. Kind of asinine IMO.

As for abolished, as in illegal to posses, manufacture, or sell. Hell no.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

We had a Revolution. Difference.

The South had no right to secede, and History - and SCOTUS has shown that.

You mean a SCOTUS decision made after the civil war was over and over 600k lives were lost?

Yeah.. like the Federal Government was going to admit that the north was wrong in fighting a war that cost that many lives, and in which their generals burned, pillaged, looted, and raped whole towns......

Besides, the right of secession was clearly supported by all states....... right up until someone actually did it.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Then what the heck are you trying to say? You trying to say we were wrong for breaking away from England? Come on now. The South had the right to secede, and had made that perfectly clear when they acceded to the union, they had the right to secede from the union

Not really....The South succeeding was a treasonous act that cost hundreds of thousands of American lives. The flag is a symbol of treason too.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Removed from tax paid public service buildings and grounds yes. Not because it offends a large number of people, but because it is unnecessary for government to function. Besides, the north won the war... Thus we would essentially be flying our enemies flag after our victory. Kind of asinine IMO.

As for abolished, as in illegal to posses, manufacture, or sell. Hell no.

So then, all flags over national parks and war memorials and national cemetaries should be removed because they are unnecessary for the government to function...........

That flag up there on the U.S. Capitol Building isn't necessary either.... time to bring it down.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So the Confederate flag isnt offensive to liberty and freedom to you?

No, not per se. Rather, it can be depending on the context that is being used. Today, that context is usually regional pride and / or pride in the miltiary accomplishments of the CSA (lost the war, while winning or drawing most battles).

It is the same with the U.S. flag. Here, for example, is a photo of a northeren rascist using the US flag in bad context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_busing_desegregation#/media/File:Soiling_of_Old_Glory.jpg
 
Re: Confederate Flag

So then, all flags over national parks and war memorials and national cemetaries should be removed because they are unnecessary for the government to function...........

That flag up there on the U.S. Capitol Building isn't necessary either.... time to bring it down.

Flying the flag of the current government symbolizes who is in control. How is that not essential to government function?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I would understand when Albania joins with Dardania, that perhaps in the beginning there may be two flags. But the southern flag represents secession not unification, so remove it I say.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It should be removed/prohibited from display on any public space at all levels of government. Private display would have to be allowed. I personally am happy to have moron racists identify themselves. This BS that it's just like the US flag (coming from the very people who support the confederate symbol of treason and slavery) is weak beyond belief. It was under that US flag that slavery was abolished in this country. Yes, atrocities have occurred and in the name of what that flag is supposed to represent (the most recent have been the Iraq War and torture) but by fits and starts we try to correct and get back to first principles of the founding of this country (in that typical hypocrisy of the extreme rightwing, most of the people who find the rebel flag an inspiration are also the most likely to lead us into committing those atrocities and perversions under the US flag). The rebel symbol of slavery and brutality differs entirely because its proponents will never admit they're wrong about anything it represented 150 years ago and still does today. Consider this: the KKK wants to hold a rally on the SC capitol grounds this week to "celebrate" that flag. Now, please, try to tell us that that flag doesn't represent slavery again. The laugh will do us good.
 
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