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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

True but they didnt allow it either.


You would do good to learn some history. The spring of 1861 was the very beginning of the Civil War. History shows that there was indeed a plan to take over.

OK, after the union invaded the south, there were some largely fantasy plans about siezing federal territories, but not states. This does nothing to change the fact that the CSA fought a defensive war.

True but they didnt allow it either.

The founding fahters did state in Article 10 that:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

Thus, as secession is not banned by the constitution, it is a power reserved to the states (so long as they adhere to the principle of "fully in" or "completely out"). Face it, Lincoln launched an illegal war of aggression.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

OK, after the union invaded the south, there were some largely fantasy plans about siezing federal territories, but not states. This does nothing to change the fact that the CSA fought a defensive war.
The Confederates could never actually organize because they had the same problem that the US had under the articles of confederation. But at one point they tried to take Washington DC. But yea a war is going to be fought defencively when you are way over powered and your chain of command sucks balls.



The founding fahters did state in Article 10 that:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

Thus, as secession is not banned by the constitution, it is a power reserved to the states (so long as they adhere to the principle of "fully in" or "completely out"). Face it, Lincoln launched an illegal war of aggression.
Article 10 isnt a free ticket for the States to be assholes.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I never claimed otherwise. I only lyrics pointed out that the north behaved like "dicks" too. Look up Sherman's March then get back to me about how righteous the north was.
That wont work at all. Two wrongs dont make a right.

As for the Confederate flag goes, it's my understanding that it is not flown on any state capitol buildings. It is flown over civil war monuments. It's not being displayed in the inappropriate manner that many are painting it to be.[/QUOTE] The reason that the Confederate monument exists is because the Confederate flag was removed from the dome as part of the South Carolina Heritage Act of 2000. It is still on the grounds of the State building, hell its front and center. All that they did is manipulate the laws in order to keep the flag flying.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That wont work at all. Two wrongs dont make a right.

As for the Confederate flag goes, it's my understanding that it is not flown on any state capitol buildings. It is flown over civil war monuments. It's not being displayed in the inappropriate manner that many are painting it to be.
The reason that the Confederate monument exists is because the Confederate flag was removed from the dome as part of the South Carolina Heritage Act of 2000. It is still on the grounds of the State building, hell its front and center. All that they did is manipulate the laws in order to keep the flag flying.[/QUOTE]
Never said two wrongs make a right. I only said that defenders of the Norths aggression is not doing so from a moral high ground. Also I understand that the flag was moved from the state capitol to the memorial, if it was still flying atop of the capital I would agree that it's an inappropriate location.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

What exactly is NUANCED about slavery of a race of people?

I didn't say that slavery was nuanced... would you like to try again?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Oh, I see, we are going to divert to the argument for perfection. That is cute. I view it this way, we are nation with the stated goal of equality under the law and have been working towards this goal. The Confederacy was not founded on that goal, in fact is was based on the opposite belief that Blacks were inferior to Whites. We should not endorse a system with that ideology.

I never made the claim the US, its policies or action have been perfect (they haven't) or are the best (they are not), but then that wasn't the premise...was it?

PS...you are really off-base if you think I am going to defend the policies of Johnson/Nixon or of GWB. But the defending of South Korea from becoming enslaved under NK regimes, I am fine with Truman going forward and pushing NK back to the 39th.

I just noticed that I was quoted in your sig... nice! :lol:
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

It should not be abolished.But at the same time it the only flags that have any business flying on government buildings are the United States of America flag and the flag of the state that government building is in.If it is a museum or parade then that is a different thing. I realize that to a lot of Americans it is a sign of southern pride much the same way the Irish flag is a sign of Irish pride.But like the Irish Flag the confederate flag is a forign country's flag and there for should not be flown on government buildings. At the same time it should be the choice of the people in that state and not that of scumbags trying to exploit a tragedy whether or not that flag stays or goes.

I could care less if some people see it as a racist symbol, heck many people see the American flag as a racist symbol. But many of those same people who see these flags as a symbol of racism and or oppression will freely fly a communist or socialist flag,defend socialism and or communism, wear Che Guevara t-shirts, defend our relations with middle eastern countries that kill homosexuals and people who join other religions and treat women like garbage, support oppressive reigns like China, Cuba and other similar countries and think Mao Sae tung, Karl Marx, Margaret Sanger, Bill Ayers and other degenerate racists,terrorists and or oppressive scum are good people.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Confederates could never actually organize because they had the same problem that the US had under the articles of confederation. But at one point they tried to take Washington DC. But yea a war is going to be fought defencively when you are way over powered and your chain of command sucks balls.

The strategic war goal of the union was to force the CSA back into the via invasion union. Meanwhile the fundamental war goal of the confederacy was simply to leave. Thus, individual battles aside, the CSA was fighting strategically a defensive war.

Article 10 isnt a free ticket for the States to be assholes.
Assholes?

Good grief, I cant think of anything more "asshole' ish" than launching a perfectly avoidable war of aggression simply to win a political dispute because states via an accepted democratic process* elected to leave a union that the founding document of the nation says is a voluntary union (article 10)

The level of "assholeness" is DC was magnified by the fact that armed invasion was not the Union's only option. They could have conducted a diplomatic hearts and minds campaign to bring less that fully committed NC, TN and VI back. This campaign could have been backed by alot of economic carrots and sticks. In all probablity, it would have been successfu- espescially given the fact that plantation slavery was going to go uneconomical in about 20 years. Even a few states re-joining the union would have led to alot of other states to reconsider their CSA membership. But no, the jerks decided that armed invasion was the only possibility..... .

Now, if the war of a aggression was laucnhed to emancipate slaves, I would agree with you. But that simply was not the case.

*Yes, there was some Confederate electioneering in TN to get the desired outcome, but this was mirrored by Federal electioneering in Missouri, KY and MD.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

I didn't say that slavery was nuanced... would you like to try again?

Why should I try again when I hit it out of the park the first time.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Why should I try again when I hit it out of the park the first time.

I was not talking about slavery being nuanced... that is why. This FAIL is pretty epic though.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The strategic war goal of the union was to force the CSA back into the via invasion union. Meanwhile the fundamental war goal of the confederacy was simply to leave. Thus, individual battles aside, the CSA was fighting strategically a defensive war.


Assholes?

Good grief, I cant think of anything more "asshole' ish" than launching a perfectly avoidable war of aggression simply to win a political dispute because states via an accepted democratic process* elected to leave a union that the founding document of the nation says is a voluntary union (article 10)

The level of "assholeness" is DC was magnified by the fact that armed invasion was not the Union's only option. They could have conducted a diplomatic hearts and minds campaign to bring less that fully committed NC, TN and VI back. This campaign could have been backed by alot of economic carrots and sticks. In all probablity, it would have been successfu- espescially given the fact that plantation slavery was going to go uneconomical in about 20 years. Even a few states re-joining the union would have led to alot of other states to reconsider their CSA membership. But no, the jerks decided that armed invasion was the only possibility..... .

Now, if the war of a aggression was laucnhed to emancipate slaves, I would agree with you. But that simply was not the case.

*Yes, there was some Confederate electioneering in TN to get the desired outcome, but this was mirrored by Federal electioneering in Missouri, KY and MD.

The South had no justification in the first place to do anything that they did. So yes my ancestors in the South were being assholes.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Never said two wrongs make a right. I only said that defenders of the Norths aggression is not doing so from a moral high ground. Also I understand that the flag was moved from the state capitol to the memorial, if it was still flying atop of the capital I would agree that it's an inappropriate location.

There isnt any North or South unless you live back in the Civil War days.

The current location is no better than the flying the flag on the Dome. It is just semantics having it placed where it is. People get to say that the Battle flag isnt on the actual building, and claim it is just part of a Civil War memorial. But nothing really changed and people have noticed that fact. You can deny it all that you want but the flag is none the less on the State building grounds and is a very predominant feature. In other words same flag just a different location because people complained.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

So everybody who is in favor of the flag, let me ask you this.

What if you were Jewish, and everywhere you turned, you saw a flag with a swastika on it? It was flying over your capitol building It was on the license plate of your car that you had to pay Ad Velorum tax to have. Everytime you went shopping, it was on t shirts and beer cozies and flying from the backs of giant 4 wheel drives.

How would that make you feel?

Both are symbols of hate and divisiveness. I would only hope that if that ever happened to any of you, you wouldn't be called a crybaby.

I think the difference is the Nazi flag and the swastika are symbols of the Nazi Party. Neither were ever the symbols of Germany. Therefore, they stood for everything Hitler stood for.

The confederate flag was actually the flag of the southern states of this country. While they did some terrible things, such as slavery, they did some very nice things too. It was the flag of all the people, not just the ideology of slave ownership.

I don't know what the right thing to do on this is. I see both sides, honestly. On the one hand, a lot of southerners look at it as a symbol of their heritage with no malice intended, and it would be too bad to take that away from them. On the other hand, a lot of African Americans look at it as a symbol of slavery, and they have a legitimate reason to do so.

I guess where I fall on this issue is I want the flag gone, but I want it to happen organically within the Southern states. I don't want Obama or anyone from the North pushing this, it would be so much more meaningful if the South gave it up on their own without being prodded.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I was not talking about slavery being nuanced... that is why. This FAIL is pretty epic though.

Lets examine the post and quotes

here is my post 558 with you in it

Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
She doesn't understand the chronology of dates... how do you expect her to deal with more nuanced concepts?

and my response
What exactly is NUANCED about slavery of a race of people?

What exactly is your problem with that? What do you claim was being discussed if not the Confederate flag of the topic and what it stands for?
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

Ya know..i cant even get 4 co-workers to agree on where to go for lunch but..somehow..the whole nation,in a matter of hours, decided to all ban the dixie flag...amazing.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I think the difference is the Nazi flag and the swastika are symbols of the Nazi Party. Neither were ever the symbols of Germany. Therefore, they stood for everything Hitler stood for.

The confederate flag was actually the flag of the southern states of this country. While they did some terrible things, such as slavery, they did some very nice things too. It was the flag of all the people, not just the ideology of slave ownership.

I don't know what the right thing to do on this is. I see both sides, honestly. On the one hand, a lot of southerners look at it as a symbol of their heritage with no malice intended, and it would be too bad to take that away from them. On the other hand, a lot of African Americans look at it as a symbol of slavery, and they have a legitimate reason to do so.

I guess where I fall on this issue is I want the flag gone, but I want it to happen organically within the Southern states. I don't want Obama or anyone from the North pushing this, it would be so much more meaningful if the South gave it up on their own without being prodded.

True, but it hasn't happened for years. It unfortunately has had a resurgence. It will not go without the South fighting it. That is unfortunate.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

True, but it hasn't happened for years. It unfortunately has had a resurgence. It will not go without the South fighting it. That is unfortunate.

If you listen closely you can hear Confederate generals and soldiers alike spinning in their graves
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The South had no justification in the first place to do anything that they did. So yes my ancestors in the South were being assholes.

Neither the CSA (their primary cause for leaving was slavery, a slowly dying institution economically and morally- even in the American south) nor the USA (pursuing a power poltics dispute "all or nothing" style) were justified.

In the end, however, it was the Union that launched an illegal war of aggression against states either taking a constitutionally permissable course of action, or who in some cases were sympathetic to others doing so and in other cases, might have potentially seceeded.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That's like saying the colonists had no right to break away from England. Just as silly

The Thirteen Colonies wanted to break away in order to form a Democratic Republic, the first country founded with a true commitment to such values, in order to fight rule from London. There was no representation in Parliament, the Colonies were largely subject to impositions from appointed Governors, they risked the sudden imposition of Crown directives which had broad powers to override the will of the elected local legislatures, etc. More important is that regardless of the technical grievances that the colonists gave the result of the American Revolution was the creation of the first true Democratic Republic committed to the expansion of liberty.

The Southern States wanted to break away from a Democratic Republic because of fears that Northern economic and political power would imperil their 'peculiar institution' of slavery. The Confederacy was designed from its inception to be a white supremacist state aimed at ensuring that its black population could never rise to any modicum of real liberty. Further, the successful secession of the Confederacy would have imperiled the cause of democracy worldwide by validating the allegations that critics had hurled at the manifest 'instability' of the democratic experiment and by creating an American continent riven by perpetual tension and war.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Thirteen Colonies wanted to break away in order to form a Democratic Republic, the first country founded with a true commitment to such values, in order to fight rule from London. There was no representation in Parliament, the Colonies were largely subject to impositions from appointed Governors, they risked the sudden imposition of Crown directives which had broad powers to override the will of the elected local legislatures, etc. More important is that regardless of the technical grievances that the colonists gave the result of the American Revolution was the creation of the first true Democratic Republic committed to the expansion of liberty.

The Southern States wanted to break away from a Democratic Republic because of fears that Northern economic and political power would imperil their 'peculiar institution' of slavery. The Confederacy was designed from its inception to be a white supremacist state aimed at ensuring that its black population could never rise to any modicum of real liberty. Further, the successful secession of the Confederacy would have imperiled the cause of democracy worldwide by validating the allegations that critics had hurled at the manifest 'instability' of the democratic experiment and by creating an American continent riven by perpetual tension and war.

It was more like the north was taxing them to death to pay for the War of 1812. Not to mention that slavery was also fairly widespread up north, and there was no way Lincoln was gonna let the blacks stay here. His plan was to send them all back to Africa. In fact he didn't care if slavery existed or not, as long as he kept the South from exercising their right to leave.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Thirteen Colonies wanted to break away in order to form a Democratic Republic, the first country founded with a true commitment to such values, in order to fight rule from London. There was no representation in Parliament, the Colonies were largely subject to impositions from appointed Governors, they risked the sudden imposition of Crown directives which had broad powers to override the will of the elected local legislatures, etc. More important is that regardless of the technical grievances that the colonists gave the result of the American Revolution was the creation of the first true Democratic Republic committed to the expansion of liberty.

The Southern States wanted to break away from a Democratic Republic because of fears that Northern economic and political power would imperil their 'peculiar institution' of slavery. The Confederacy was designed from its inception to be a white supremacist state aimed at ensuring that its black population could never rise to any modicum of real liberty. Further, the successful secession of the Confederacy would have imperiled the cause of democracy worldwide by validating the allegations that critics had hurled at the manifest 'instability' of the democratic experiment and by creating an American continent riven by perpetual tension and war.

The North was not innocent of this. In fact, "No Irish or Dogs need apply." The north was horrifically racist for a VERY long time. Slavery wasn't a danger to their liberty. It was a danger to their pocket books. The only reason the north didn't remain the way it was...was because the green back was more important than the skin color.

I would even argue that the move westward is the proof that slavery was crippling to the pocket book of middle class voters and business owners and farmers. They wouldn't gain money from slavery. They were still racist to Blacks. They just cared more about money.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It was more like the north was taxing them to death to pay for the War of 1812. Not to mention that slavery was also fairly widespread up north, and there was no way Lincoln was gonna let the blacks stay here. His plan was to send them all back to Africa. In fact he didn't care if slavery existed or not, as long as he kept the South from exercising their right to leave.

So it is your contention that the South seceded because it was being 'taxed to death' as the result of war debts incurred from the War of 1812? I would love to hear an explanation for that line of reasoning. Further, no slavery was not 'widespread' throughout the North. In the years immediately preceding the Civil War slavery had been abolished in every northern state except for Delaware and Maryland. Finally, the entire Republican Party had its genesis in opposition to Slavery, the expansion of 'Free State' boundaries and the eventual rollback and abolition of slavery. That in the 1850's people were simultaneously anti-slavery and bigoted shouldn't be shocking nor does it have any bearing on the issue.
 
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