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Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 30.2%
  • No

    Votes: 127 69.8%

  • Total voters
    182
Re: Confederate Flag

I'm no historian, but I don't think they were attempting to "overthrow" the USA. I believe they were attempting to form their own country. One that would not have a central government with too much authority over the member States. I'm sure that one of the primary reasons for even trying this was in fact their belief that slavery was necessary for their continued financial existence. We all agree that slavery was a horrible thing and looking back (with our 20/20 hindsight) we all understand how wrong it was.

You are correct; you are no historian. Are you aware that the South planed on taking Washington DC? What do you think the purpose of such a plan would be?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The same critical eye...on slavery.....and on war? Oh but I have, I understand they are very different things and not to be absurdly equated.

That's the problem see - your view doesn't define your ideology, your ideology defines your view. You cannot honestly and intelligently use the same critical comparison because of that. That is why you fail.

Anything else I have to say would simply be repetitive and attempting to address a dishonest discussion on your part.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The framers were against factions taking over swaths of the country, unlike the CSA who relied on talking over the USA.

The framers never banned secession. As the CSA simply wanted to leave, they were not "taking over" anything.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Where can I buy one?

Be more specific - and let me remind you on the internet you can pretty much buy anything.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

If you're not already well aware of what I'm talking about then you're part of the problem. :roll:




"Tolerance is giving to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

Oh yeah... of course....

You must be referring to Human Trafficking...
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Yeah, because people whining means we have change how we do things. I find that many times when someone is acting like they are victimized the problem has more to do with self confidence than anything else.

What do conservative Christians have to do with this?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Should the Confederate Flag be removed/abolished?

I say no. The argument is that it represents racism and slavery. That is stupid. So does the American Flag.

Removed from where?

Removed form your yard....No

Removed from Public land...yes
 
Re: Confederate Flag

That's the problem see - your view doesn't define your ideology, your ideology defines your view. You cannot honestly and intelligently use the same critical comparison because of that. That is why you fail.

Anything else I have to say would simply be repetitive and attempting to address a dishonest discussion on your part.
Of course my views define my own personal ideology, the idea that I consult an ideology handbook before I form an opinion, a view, on a subject is as absurd as equating the act of war and the act of slavery.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I thought this was interesting.-

Slavery, or rather the Union's distaste for it, was after all a significant reason why the southern states wished to secede in the first place. But how exactly did the flag re-emerge as a potent political symbol?

It began, perhaps counter-intuitively, with the rise of the Civil Rights movement in the 20th century. As African-Americans began to articulate their political desires and push for an end to discrimination, those who opposed them sought a potent symbol to mobilise against them........

This, then, is the legacy of the battle flag of the southern states; a sharp reminder of the racism that has been an indelible part of America's socio-political conscience since its formation, and the reason why it has been under fire in the wake of Charleston and other racial attacks.


Heritage or hate: The history of the US Confederate Flag
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I thought this was interesting.-

Slavery, or rather the Union's distaste for it, was after all a significant reason why the southern states wished to secede in the first place. But how exactly did the flag re-emerge as a potent political symbol?

It began, perhaps counter-intuitively, with the rise of the Civil Rights movement in the 20th century. As African-Americans began to articulate their political desires and push for an end to discrimination, those who opposed them sought a potent symbol to mobilise against them........

This, then, is the legacy of the battle flag of the southern states; a sharp reminder of the racism that has been an indelible part of America's socio-political conscience since its formation, and the reason why it has been under fire in the wake of Charleston and other racial attacks.


Heritage or hate: The history of the US Confederate Flag

The reason it has been under attack is because liberals used the recent mass murder as a launching pad to pursue a political agenda they have had on the back burners for years. The fact is this has nothing to do with the racial attacks or racism, but the hatred of certain elements of southern culture.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

I thought this was interesting.-

Slavery, or rather the Union's distaste for it, was after all a significant reason why the southern states wished to secede in the first place. But how exactly did the flag re-emerge as a potent political symbol?

It began, perhaps counter-intuitively, with the rise of the Civil Rights movement in the 20th century. As African-Americans began to articulate their political desires and push for an end to discrimination, those who opposed them sought a potent symbol to mobilise against them........

This, then, is the legacy of the battle flag of the southern states; a sharp reminder of the racism that has been an indelible part of America's socio-political conscience since its formation, and the reason why it has been under fire in the wake of Charleston and other racial attacks.


Heritage or hate: The history of the US Confederate Flag

Which is a blatantly false misrepresentation of the actual history.

The real truth of the matter is that the flag never actually went away in the South. It was flown at parades and official ceremonies meant to honor Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.

black-confederate-veterans.jpg


n046321.jpg


While some may have come to view the flag as being a symbol for segregation in the 1950s and 1960s, that actually wasn't the primary reason given for flying it back then either. South Carolina began flying the flag in 1961 to commemorate the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War.

Since 2000, the flag hasn't even flown over the capital anyway. It's been flying over a memorial for Confederate soldiers.

The whole "Confederate flag = racism" argument simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The vast majority of Southerners don't view it that way, and they never did.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The framers never banned secession. As the CSA simply wanted to leave, they were not "taking over" anything.

The framers may have not expressly banned secession of states in the Constitution, but they sure did ban confederation of states. The CSA was a violation of Aricle I sec. 10

Section 10.

No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Which is a blatantly false misrepresentation of the actual history.

The real truth of the matter is that the flag never actually went away in the South. It was flown at parades and official ceremonies meant to honor Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.


While some may have come to view the flag as being a symbol for segregation in the 1950s and 1960s, that actually wasn't the primary reason given for flying it back then either. South Carolina began flying the flag in 1961 to commemorate the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War.

Since 2000, the flag hasn't even flown over the capital anyway. It's been flying over a memorial for Confederate soldiers.

The whole "Confederate flag = racism" argument simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The vast majority of Southerners don't view it that way, and they never did.

Who's to say. We could trade sources supporting our positions all day and frankly I'm not interested in yet another intellectually masturbatory romp through the pages of DP with you G. Your simply focused on a different part of it's history. There are undoubtedly a small group of people who support the continued exhibition of this flag for exactly those reasons, this ugly side also exists and in my opinion shouts down any more honorable history or intent.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Which is a blatantly false misrepresentation of the actual history.

The real truth of the matter is that the flag never actually went away in the South. It was flown at parades and official ceremonies meant to honor Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.

black-confederate-veterans.jpg


n046321.jpg


While some may have come to view the flag as being a symbol for segregation in the 1950s and 1960s, that actually wasn't the primary reason given for flying it back then either. South Carolina began flying the flag in 1961 to commemorate the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War.

Since 2000, the flag hasn't even flown over the capital anyway. It's been flying over a memorial for Confederate soldiers.

The whole "Confederate flag = racism" argument simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The vast majority of Southerners don't view it that way, and they never did.

Who gets to determine it's use on public land? The SCV or the people of the state?
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic
The framers never banned secession. As the CSA simply wanted to leave, they were not "taking over" anything.
They sure as heck were "taking over" Federal property all over the South - property that belonged to all of the US Citizens.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Who's to say. We could trade sources supporting our positions all day and frankly I'm not interested in yet another intellectually masturbatory romp through the pages of DP with you G. Your simply focused on a different part of it's history. There are undoubtedly a small group of people who support the continued exhibition of this flag for exactly those reasons, this ugly side also exists and in my opinion shouts down any more honorable history or intent.

No, it's the other way around. Most Southerners who support the flag do so as a matter of pride in their heritage, and as an emblem of Southern culture. The racists are a minority, and an incredibly small one at that.

You're essentially arguing that the KKK's fringe radical interpretation of the flag trumps that of the vast majority of the population. Let's be honest here, the only reason you're doing so is because it better meshes with the preconceived negative stereotype of white Southerners being racists that you happen to have floating around in your head, and the ideological narrative you've built around it.

At the end of the day, this latest wave of hysteria is the product of political and regional bigotry, and not much else.
 
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Re: Confederate Flag

The framers never banned secession.
True but they didnt allow it either.


As the CSA simply wanted to leave, they were not "taking over" anything.
You would do good to learn some history. The spring of 1861 was the very beginning of the Civil War. History shows that there was indeed a plan to take over.

In the Spring of 1861, Sibley, a Louisianan who had just resigned from the U.S. Army, met with Confederate President Jefferson Davis, outlining a strategy to take over the American West. The plan called for an invasion along the eastern side of the Rocky Mountains, seizing Colorado Territory, which was in the height of a gold rush, as well as Fort Laramie, Wyoming, which was the most important garrison along the Oregon Trail.

Sibley then planned on focusing on areas farther west to attack mineral-rich Nevada and California. His strategy also included taking the northern Mexican states of Chihuahua, Sonora, and Lower California, either through purchase or by invasion. The Civil War in New Mexico - Page 2
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The Confederate states DID secede, in part, over the right to own slaves but the overall reason for secession was more about States Rights as a whole than anything else.

Perhaps states rights was part of the reason, but when you read through the Constitution of the Confederate States (3/11/1861), it makes 20 references to slavery or property, but only 12 references to any sort of right. Further, the word Constitution is only used 26 times in the whole document.

Kind of makes you wonder what the intent actually was, and from the prolific use of the term slavery in this document I'd say thats the number one reason.

Hell, for fun you should read- A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

Then get revisit the reasons for the Civil War.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Which is a blatantly false misrepresentation of the actual history.

The real truth of the matter is that the flag never actually went away in the South. It was flown at parades and official ceremonies meant to honor Confederate veterans right up until the last of them died in the 1940s and 1950s.

black-confederate-veterans.jpg


n046321.jpg


While some may have come to view the flag as being a symbol for segregation in the 1950s and 1960s, that actually wasn't the primary reason given for flying it back then either. South Carolina began flying the flag in 1961 to commemorate the 100 year anniversary of the start of the Civil War.

Since 2000, the flag hasn't even flown over the capital anyway. It's been flying over a memorial for Confederate soldiers.

The whole "Confederate flag = racism" argument simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The vast majority of Southerners don't view it that way, and they never did.

Glad someone besides me understands that! Sadly too many people never learn the true history of the South
 
Re: Confederate Flag

It would seem for some people that you cannot acknowledge known historical facts about the Confederacy, slavery, racists, anti Americans, and their direct involvement with the rebel/Confederate battle flag without being called a Leftist or politically correct or whatever lame excuse for flying a flag that is the direct representation of a army formed to overthrow the USA. Doesnt it strike anyone as being unpatriotic?

I stand for the right of every American individual to fly whatever silly flag that they want. I also assert that public buildings should not fly a flag that represents the Confederacy unless its a museum of some sort. This is the USA not the CSA.
Actually the south did not try to overthrow the north. They elected to separate from the north and establish their own centralized government because they could not agree on a host of different things including but not limited solely to slavery. The north iniated the use of force to prevent the secession. The north also has no moral high ground when you look at the inhumane tactics they engaged in to keep the south in the union.

Many would argue the civil war was more about greed than it was about morality. The south did not want to give up their slaves and the North did not want to lose the taxes paid by the south to the Fed's.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Actually the south did not try to overthrow the north. They elected to separate from the north and establish their own centralized government because they could not agree on a host of different things including but not limited solely to slavery. The north iniated the use of force to prevent the secession. The north also has no moral high ground when you look at the inhumane tactics they engaged in to keep the south in the union.

Many would argue the civil war was more about greed than it was about morality. The south did not want to give up their slaves and the North did not want to lose the taxes paid by the south to the Fed's.

Actually The South engaged in a insurrection. The South at no time were being passive. They were not just going their own way. The Confederate states would have kept trying to take over the USA if their Confederate form of government hadnt sucked so bad.

Either way the Confederate flag is a symbol of failure, slavery, and anti Americanism. Yes it has historical significance but no matter how you spin it, the Confederate flag is not and never has been American. The Civil War was indeed bad for all sides, and had the South not been dicks the Civil War would not have happened.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Actually The South engaged in a insurrection. The South at no time were being passive. They were not just going their own way. The Confederate states would have kept trying to take over the USA if their Confederate form of government hadnt sucked so bad.

Either way the Confederate flag is a symbol of failure, slavery, and anti Americanism. Yes it has historical significance but no matter how you spin it, the Confederate flag is not and never has been American. The Civil War was indeed bad for all sides, and had the South not been dicks the Civil War would not have happened.
I never claimed otherwise. I only lyrics pointed out that the north behaved like "dicks" too. Look up Sherman's March then get back to me about how righteous the north was.

As for the Confederate flag goes, it's my understanding that it is not flown on any state capitol buildings. It is flown over civil war monuments. It's not being displayed in the inappropriate manner that many are painting it to be.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

Ok.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/...uga-battlefield-point-park-gift-shops/311540/

This is wrong. You don't remove the flag from battlefields or historical landmarks that were southern. That isn't about southern pride. That is one side trying to white wash history for the public agenda.

Wtf? There is a legitimate historical significance to have these flags there. It is there to represent a strife that resulted in many American deaths. As divide that our nation was lucky to overcome. Taking that flag down defiles the reason men fought and died.
 
Re: Confederate Flag

The framers may have not expressly banned secession of states in the Constitution, but they sure did ban confederation of states. The CSA was a violation of Aricle I sec. 10

Section 10.

No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.

No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay.

And seceeding states would do none of those things as they were no longer "states" in the constitutional sense. Article I sec. 10 bascially tells member states that you are either completely "in" or completely "out", there is no middle ground. In the case of the CSA, they wanted completely out.

When viewed agaisnt the "out or "in" context, the article in question makes perfect sense as allowing member states to be "some what in, but also out" would make the nation ungovernable.
 
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