View Poll Results: Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

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  • Yes

    55 29.57%
  • No

    131 70.43%
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Thread: Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

  1. #191
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    I suppose one can hold to such an argument if they choose to ignore the beliefs held by Jefferson, the intentions that when Article 1 Section 9 expired and the Acts to ban the importation of slaves. Early on the intent was to end slavery, a holdover from colonial times. It was the Southern conservatives that kept blocking moves to abolish because they did not change their farming economics or moral values as the North did.
    I'd have believed that too if I wasn't aware that NONE of the founders taking that position divested themselves of their own slaves. The compromise was made to form this nation, and slavery was allowed in order to make that happen. The solution should have come from the people and the states, NOT the federal government. NOT some states using the federal to gain power over other states.

    And slavery did not end with the Civil War. Just ask the Chinese working on the railroads.

  2. #192
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Sure, the will of ....White people.

    That makes a big difference in the framing of the argument.
    No, it doesn't. Context. The will of the people when this nation was formed was the will of the white male people.

  3. #193
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    If you want to have an honest discussion, this was a real thing that was in peoples minds at the time. The North had the majority of power and industrialization and it was felt in the pockets of the southern commoner.
    ...
    Let's hear from some of the folks at the time, and what they had to say:

    "In 1858, the eventual president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis threatened secession should a Republican be elected to the presidency:

    I say to you here as I have said to the Democracy of New York, if it should ever come to pass that the Constitution shall be perverted to the destruction of our rights so that we shall have the mere right as a feeble minority unprotected by the barrier of the Constitution to give an ineffectual negative vote in the Halls of Congress, we shall then bear to the federal government the relation our colonial fathers did to the British crown, and if we are worthy of our lineage we will in that event redeem our rights even if it be through the process of revolution.


    It is difficult for modern Americans to understand such militant commitment to the bondage of others. But at $3.5 billion, the four million enslaved African Americans in the South represented the country’s greatest financial asset. And the dollar amount does not hint at the force of enslavement as a social institution. By the onset of the Civil War, Southern slaveholders believed that African slavery was one of the great organizing institutions in world history, superior to the “free society” of the North.


    From an 1856 issue of Alabama’s Muscogee Herald:

    Free Society! we sicken at the name. What is it but a conglomeration of greasy mechanics, filthy operatives, small-fisted farmers, and moon-struck theorists? All the Northern men and especially the New England States are devoid of society fitted for well-bred gentlemen. The prevailing class one meet with is that of mechanics struggling to be genteel, and small farmers who do their own drudgery, and yet are hardly fit for association with a Southern gentleman's body servant. This is your free society which Northern hordes are trying to extend into Kansas.
    The last sentence refers to the conflict over slavery between free-soilers and slave-holders. The conflict was not merely about the right to hold another human in bondage, but how that right created the foundation for white equality.



    Jefferson Davis again:

    You too know, that among us, white men have an equality resulting from a presence of a lower caste, which cannot exist where white men fill the position here occupied by the servile race. The mechanic who comes among us, employing the less intellectual labor of the African, takes the position which only a master-workman occupies where all the mechanics are white, and therefore it is that our mechanics hold their position of absolute equality among us.

    Black slavery as the basis of white equality was a frequent theme for slaveholders. In his famous “Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond compared the alleged wage slavery of the North with black slavery—and white equality—in the South:"

    ^ From great Article that is well worth the read, if you care: The Confederate Cause in the Words of Its Leaders - The Atlantic

  4. #194
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by HowardBThiname View Post
    And some people fan the flames of racism by accusing non-racists of being racist.

    Those people are the part of the problem - not the solution.


    Ignoring racism won't make it go away. We need to shine a bright light on it every time that it rears its ugly head.




    "At the heart of racism is the religious assertion that God made a creative mistake when He brought some people into being." ~ Friedrich Otto Hertz

  5. #195
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Most everyone understands that the Southern Democrats were EXTREMELY conservative, hence why the Southern Strategy worked so well from the 1960's forward.
    They were fiscal liberals/Federalists... and they liked the use of government control to fit their culture norms. The democrat party hasn't changed in it's foundation... Just when they couldn't have that social control anymore they retreated to try to protect their own views/liberties... that's why some started voting republican.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You can try to paint it anyway you like, the fact still is it represents a defending of a slave system, something Dixiecrats and the KKK understood.

    ???????
    Democrats* ...They can't change the meaning of the flag, you can't change the name

  6. #196
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    What are you talking about?

    The Cotton Gin directly lead to the deep entrenchment and demand for slavery and arguably directly led to the Civil War.
    What I am talking about is the shortsightedness of the Antebellum South. Slavery was inefficient, it stifled growth...even with the Gin. But the South insisted on an archaic system because of ideology that that Blacks are inferior, that White slave holding is the natural order of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drumpf
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    He didn't say it didn't make sense. He said it is complete nonsense.

  7. #197
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    That is revisionist nonsense. The South seceded for the states right to preserve the institution of slavery. Had it not been for slavery, the South would not have seceded.
    To keep the union whole Lincoln offered to let the south keep their slaves. He would not allow the new territories who would later become states the right to slavery however. While the south had an issue with that, there were other issues. Pro slavery Democrats were upset with Republican abolitionists in the north. To gain control of the federal legislature, the south wanted slaves counted in the census for the purpose of counting legislators. The abolitionists only allowed slaves to be counted as 3/5th of a person for the census thus taking votes away in the house of representatives for the south and decreasing their impact in Federal government.

    The south succeeded. Two years after succession Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation hoping to create a slave rebellion in the south and further taxing confederate troops. He allowed some northern states to keep their slaves and the institution of slavery lasted until after the war was over and congress ratified the thirteenth amendment.

    To say that the civil war was about slavery isn't quite true. It was a large issue but Lincoln was willing to let the south keep their slaves and there were many more issues that contributed to the south's unhappiness with the union. In the end it's more accurate to say that the war was fought over states rights and federal power.

    Some of this I knew. Some I garnered from my participation in these discussions and independent reading I did as a result. Thank you.
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury." Attributed to Alexander Tytler

  8. #198
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by gimmesometruth View Post
    what i am talking about is the shortsightedness of the antebellum south. Slavery was inefficient, it stifled growth...even with the gin. But the south insisted on an archaic system because of ideology that that blacks are inferior, that white slave holding is the natural order of things.
    k.

    ...

  9. #199
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    Let's hear from some of the folks at the time, and what they had to say:

    "In 1858, the eventual president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis threatened secession should a Republican be elected to the presidency:

    I say to you here as I have said to the Democracy of New York, if it should ever come to pass that the Constitution shall be perverted to the destruction of our rights so that we shall have the mere right as a feeble minority unprotected by the barrier of the Constitution to give an ineffectual negative vote in the Halls of Congress, we shall then bear to the federal government the relation our colonial fathers did to the British crown, and if we are worthy of our lineage we will in that event redeem our rights even if it be through the process of revolution.


    It is difficult for modern Americans to understand such militant commitment to the bondage of others. But at $3.5 billion, the four million enslaved African Americans in the South represented the country’s greatest financial asset. And the dollar amount does not hint at the force of enslavement as a social institution. By the onset of the Civil War, Southern slaveholders believed that African slavery was one of the great organizing institutions in world history, superior to the “free society” of the North.


    From an 1856 issue of Alabama’s Muscogee Herald:

    Free Society! we sicken at the name. What is it but a conglomeration of greasy mechanics, filthy operatives, small-fisted farmers, and moon-struck theorists? All the Northern men and especially the New England States are devoid of society fitted for well-bred gentlemen. The prevailing class one meet with is that of mechanics struggling to be genteel, and small farmers who do their own drudgery, and yet are hardly fit for association with a Southern gentleman's body servant. This is your free society which Northern hordes are trying to extend into Kansas.
    The last sentence refers to the conflict over slavery between free-soilers and slave-holders. The conflict was not merely about the right to hold another human in bondage, but how that right created the foundation for white equality.



    Jefferson Davis again:

    You too know, that among us, white men have an equality resulting from a presence of a lower caste, which cannot exist where white men fill the position here occupied by the servile race. The mechanic who comes among us, employing the less intellectual labor of the African, takes the position which only a master-workman occupies where all the mechanics are white, and therefore it is that our mechanics hold their position of absolute equality among us.

    Black slavery as the basis of white equality was a frequent theme for slaveholders. In his famous “Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond compared the alleged wage slavery of the North with black slavery—and white equality—in the South:"

    ^ From great Article that is well worth the read, if you care: The Confederate Cause in the Words of Its Leaders - The Atlantic
    lol, I am sure I can find quotes that match what I am saying too... I never said slavery/racism wasn't there and wasn't a part of the confederacy, I am saying the conflict was much broader than that. Even to the republicans at the time it had nothing to do with slavery but seceding from the union. Lincoln actually supported a mandate that states have a constitutional right to either banish or maintain slavery.

  10. #200
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by sawdust View Post
    To keep the union whole Lincoln offered to let the south keep their slaves. He would not allow the new territories who would later become states the right to slavery however. While the south had an issue with that, there were other issues. Pro slavery Democrats were upset with Republican abolitionists in the north. To gain control of the federal legislature, the south wanted slaves counted in the census for the purpose of counting legislators. The abolitionists only allowed slaves to be counted as 3/5th of a person for the census thus taking votes away in the house of representatives for the south and decreasing their impact in Federal government.
    ...
    That's quite a mixed up rendering of the 3/5th compromise.

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