View Poll Results: Should the Confederate Flag be abolished?

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  • Yes

    55 29.57%
  • No

    131 70.43%
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Thread: Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

  1. #1481
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    The south wanted war - long before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

    They had been plotting and planning it for years.
    Dreaming of it you mean? There's a massive difference. If they had have been plotting wouldn't they have built a foundry or two?

  2. #1482
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    The south wanted war - long before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

    They had been plotting and planning it for years.
    Proof?

  3. #1483
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Let's go back a few more years, to the the presidential race of 1856. The first time ever a Republican was on the ballot: John C. Fremont. Slavery was a Yoooooge issue. All consuming.

    Fremont was against the expansion of slavery, and of course was despised in the South.

    Here is a campaign ribbon from 1856:



    Here is an 1856 anti-Fremont ribbon:

    Heh. What do you think they were trying to impress there?

    The South threatened at that time, if an anti-slavery President was elected - it would mean Civil War and "the Conservative South (soon) will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

    Bold Avowals--The Election of Buchanan to be a Stop Towards Disunion. - Article - NYTimes.com | 1856

    <snip>

    "The great object of the South in supporting Buchanan is to promote and extend the perpetuation of the "Conservative institution of Slavery." And the votes by which it is hoped he may be elected, are to become the basis of a secession movement and the formation of a Southern Slave Confederacy...



    Now, how's this for traitorous:

    As the 1856 election drew near, a convention of Governors of the Southern slave states was secretly held at Raleigh, North Carolina. Jefferson Davis -- then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce, was full aware of this.

    The object was to devise a scheme of rebellion at that time, in the event of the election of Colonel John C. Fremont, the Republican candidate for the Presidency.
    Henry Wise, Governor of Virginia at the time
    ...afterward boasted that, had Fremont been elected, he should have marched, at the head of twenty thousand men, to Washington, taken possession of the Capitol, and prevented the inauguration of the President elect.

    Pictorial history of the Civil War in the United States of America
    - Lossing, 1866

    Well, as we know, Buchanan was elected, and that staved off the fury for a few more years.

    And get this: James Mason of Virginia, who was the leading Senator, wrote to US Sec. of War, Jeff Davis, later Confederate President, directly requesting him to arm the Southern states for war against the US -- a four full years before -- in any event a Republican would become President.

    This was the letter

    "I have a letter from WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear.

    He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."​

    Had Fremont been elected, the date of the start of the Civil War would have likely been 1856.

  4. #1484
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Unicron View Post
    I'm not trolling you. Despite myself, I'm fascinated ( with horror) how easily some people's minds are warped to serve anothers agenda. I'm not insulting you with that, it's just really hard for me to understand.
    Perhaps these lyrics from a song in South Pacific say it best:

    You've got to be taught
    To hate and fear,
    You've got to be taught
    From year to year,
    It's got to be drummed
    In your dear little ear
    You've got to be carefully taught.

    You've got to be taught to be afraid
    Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
    And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
    You've got to be carefully taught.

    You've got to be taught before it's too late,
    Before you are six or seven or eight,
    To hate all the people your relatives hate,
    You've got to be carefully taught!
    “To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what he’s doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

  5. #1485
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Proof?
    Hello Hevrin

  6. #1486
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    I'm tired of posting this, and HorseGirl will not read it, because she scrolls over anything that does not fit into her bubble,

    but...

    for those who might be interested:
    The direct question, when posed, was answered when NY was considering it's ratification of the Constitution. At that time it was proposed:

    "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

    A vote was taken, and it was negatived.


    Elliot’s Debates: Volume 2 | Teaching American History

    Historian Amar goes on to explain the pivotal moment of agreement:

    "But exactly how were these states united? Did a state that said yes in the 1780's retain the right to unilaterally say no later on, and thereby secede? If not, why not?

    Once again, it was in New York that the answer emerged most emphatically. At the outset of the Poughkeepsie convention, anti-Federalists held a strong majority. The tide turned when word arrived that New Hampshire and Virginia had said yes to the Constitution, at which point anti-Federalists proposed a compromise: they would vote to ratify, but if the new federal government failed to embrace various reforms that they favored, "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years."

    At the risk of alienating swing voters and losing on the ultimate ratification vote, Federalists emphatically opposed the compromise.

    In doing so, they made clear to everyone - in New York and in the 12 other states where people were following the New York contest with interest - that the Constitution did not permit unilateral state secession.

    Alexander Hamilton read aloud a letter at the Poughkeepsie convention that he had received from James Madison stating that "the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever."

    Hamilton and John Jay then added their own words, which the New York press promptly reprinted: "a reservation of a right to withdraw" was "inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification."

    Thus, it was New York where the document became an irresistible reality and where its central meaning - one nation, democratic and indivisible - emerged with crystal clarity."

    Conventional Wisdom--A Commentary by Prof. Akhil Amar Yale Law School

    Yes. "In toto and forever."
    Keep posting because others will still read it. I wouldn't have known that Robert E. Lee said the country was intended to be a "perpetual union" if you, or I think it was you, hadn't posted it. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're efforts are not in vain.

  7. #1487
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Paperview View Post
    Let's go back a few more years, to the the presidential race of 1856. The first time ever a Republican was on the ballot: John C. Fremont. Slavery was a Yoooooge issue. All consuming.

    Fremont was against the expansion of slavery, and of course was despised in the South.

    Here is a campaign ribbon from 1856:



    Here is an 1856 anti-Fremont ribbon:

    Heh. What do you think they were trying to impress there?

    The South threatened at that time, if an anti-slavery President was elected - it would mean Civil War and "the Conservative South (soon) will burst forth in a carnival of blood..."

    Bold Avowals--The Election of Buchanan to be a Stop Towards Disunion. - Article - NYTimes.com | 1856

    <snip>

    "The great object of the South in supporting Buchanan is to promote and extend the perpetuation of the "Conservative institution of Slavery." And the votes by which it is hoped he may be elected, are to become the basis of a secession movement and the formation of a Southern Slave Confederacy...



    Now, how's this for traitorous:

    As the 1856 election drew near, a convention of Governors of the Southern slave states was secretly held at Raleigh, North Carolina. Jefferson Davis -- then the Secretary of War under Franklin Pierce, was full aware of this.



    Henry Wise, Governor of Virginia at the time
    Pictorial history of the Civil War in the United States of America
    - Lossing, 1866

    Well, as we know, Buchanan was elected, and that staved off the fury for a few more years.

    And get this: James Mason of Virginia, who was the leading Senator, wrote to US Sec. of War, Jeff Davis, later Confederate President, directly requesting him to arm the Southern states for war against the US -- a four full years before -- in any event a Republican would become President.

    This was the letter

    "I have a letter from WISE, of the 27th, full of spirit. He says the Governments of North Carolina, South Carolina, and Louisiana, have already agreed to rendezvous at Raleigh, and others will—this in your most private ear.

    He says, further, that he had officially requested you to exchange with Virginia, on fair terms of difference, percussion for flint muskets. I don't know the usage or power of the Department in such cases, but if it can be done, even by liberal construction, I hope you will accede. … Virginia probably has more arms than the other Southern States, and would divide in case of need. In a letter yesterday to a Committee in South Carolina. I gave it as my judgment, in the event of FREMONT's election, the South should not pause, but proceed at once to "immediate, absolute, and eternal separation."​

    Had Fremont been elected, the date of the start of the Civil War would have likely been 1856.
    Maybe Fremont would not have been bullied into war since Lincoln likely was.
    Life is short, ride a horse

  8. #1488
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Perhaps these lyrics from a song in South Pacific say it best:

    You've got to be taught
    To hate and fear,
    You've got to be taught
    From year to year,
    It's got to be drummed
    In your dear little ear
    You've got to be carefully taught.

    You've got to be taught to be afraid
    Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
    And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
    You've got to be carefully taught.

    You've got to be taught before it's too late,
    Before you are six or seven or eight,
    To hate all the people your relatives hate,
    You've got to be carefully taught!
    Well I'm certainly learning to hate and fear over the past few years. It's not my parents doing the teaching though.

  9. #1489
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Keep posting because others will still read it. I wouldn't have known that Robert E. Lee said the country was intended to be a "perpetual union" if you, or I think it was you, hadn't posted it. Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that you're efforts are not in vain.
    Caution: Parrots repeat, they do not discern.










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf



  10. #1490
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    Re: Confederate Flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfly View Post
    You just keep getting better and better. Did you just fall out of 1861? Time travel, maybe?
    So, by saying this...

    You agree it is prudent in a time of war/rebellion to burn the civilian populations homes, steal their food and belongings, murder and rape their women and children???



    You disgust me.

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